Should Umpires correct unchallenged mistakes?

[WestMichBlue]

Cajun's partner problem post made me think about about the issue of umpire mistakes not being challenged by a coach, and thus simply let go. The attitude of "they didn't catch it, we are not going to fix it" tends to make me think of the cheater's slogan that "its not cheating if I don't get caught.

I am not challenging anyone here, but I really would like some solid rationale as to why I should not get involved when my partner makes a serious mistake. Why can't I call time and ask partner why he made that call. If he realizes his mistake, should he not fix it without have to be challenged by a coach? If we don't do this, are we putting our appearances above the integrity of the game?

Two cases in point (both real)

Batter steps in box, defensive coach requests time and protest illegal player; not in lineup. PU checks lineup, agrees, and make an ASA ruling, ejecting the batter. This is an NFHS game and BU knows that unnounced sub is legally in game, but says nothing. Obviously a wrong call; player has been kicked out of the game due no fault of her own; but coach was unsure of the rule so the play stands.

Varsity game, two good teams, but kind of a low key game. Two outs, R1 comes off 2B on the pitch. Ball is returned to F1; R1 stops and slowly starts back towards 2B. F1 raises her throwing hand with the ball; R1 stops and looks at F1. BU calls R1 out for LBR violation. R1 starts to object, then runs off field. I (PU) am looking for the O coach, but she says nothing (she may not have seen F1's play attempt either). So I let it go and wander down the base line to confer with partner while teams are changing.

How serious, how game changing does the mistake have to be before, if ever, do we interject ourselves into the call to get it right?

Or do we just smugly say "too bad, coach doesn't know the rules" and it is not our problem? Are we exonerated because a coach doesn't know every rule as much as we are supposed to?


WMB

[CajunNewBlue]

If we make them.... We should fix them. (when possible)

[greymule]

In your first case, I would definitely confer with my partner with an eye to reversing the ruling. His mistake is purely rule.

The case of the LBR is more difficult, since he might have had the correct rule in mind and simply made a lousy call. I'd still confer with him before play resumed, though, just to be sure.

A couple of years ago, a partner I had never worked with before made a horrendous call in the first inning of a game played under ASA rules. R1 on 1B stealing on the pitch. F6 covered 2B but was drawn toward the runner by a very wide throw. So F6 is in R1's way, 8 feet from 2B, without the ball. R1, seeing F6 coming at her, slows almost to a stop and flinches as F6 reaches unsuccessfully for the ball, which goes off her glove and into right center field. F6, unable to stop her momentum, then crashes into a stationary R1.

BU's call? R1 out on a crash.

I started out from behind the plate to approach the BU, but before I had taken two steps, he had tossed the offensive coach. On my fourth step, he tossed an assistant coach.

What a mess. I guess I should have told my partner that he blew the call and should put R1 on 2B, or even 3B depending on how far the ball got away. With two coaches ejected, however, I didn't want to undermine the BU even if he was 100% in the wrong.

Later in the same game, I called IFR, and the runner on 2B ran back to the bag. But F4 was having a little trouble with the high pop, and the runner proceeded a few steps toward 3B. F4 did catch the ball, and seeing the runner off 2B, threw to F6 covering. The runner made it back just in time, which was lucky for me, since the BU gave a strangely delayed and casual "safe" sign. This was because, he explained to everyone, the runner had tagged up, since runners can leave as soon as the IFR is called. (In other words, the moment IFR is called, the ball is considered caught!)

I was going to talk to the guy after the game, but he disappeared immediately. The offensive coach was looking for him, too.

[BretMan]

A blatant rule misapplication and I'm going to get with my partner- that is, if I'm 100% sure I'm right and he's wrong!

A question of my partner's judgment and I'm holding back. Maybe he saw something I didn't see or his judgment is a little bit different than mine.

If I'm sure that I saw something he didn't see, I will discretely let him know that I have more information. Whether he chooses to avail himself of the opportunity to get that additional info, or what he does with it after I give it to him, is up to him.

I'll keep it discrete because I don't want to tip-off one of the coaches that there is a potential problem with the call. Doing so can add fuel to the fire and possibly lead the coach to arguing or appealling something that he didn't see happen in the first place, handng him an unfair advantage against his opponent.

By all rules and guidelines, I cannot change or overturn another umpire's call, so my options are limited. I cannot step all over one of his judgment calls, and I hope that he would would take the same approach with mine.

[NCASAUmp]

As I've said in my other posts, it's unwise to try and butt in on a call that's not yours to make. ASA makes it very clear to us in the rules.

10-3-B

Under no circumstances will any umpire seek to reverse a decision made by an associate, nor will any umpire criticize or interfere with the duties of their associate(s) unless asked to do so.

My opinion: If you see your partner really boot a call by misapplying a rule or having bad judgment (ie., pulled foot at 1B, etc.), try to catch your partner's attention through something subtle: eye contact, a small head gesture, etc. Do your best to make sure it's not giving you away as having a differing opinion. If your partner doesn't take the bait and continues the game, then talk with them later.

Anytime I work with a rookie umpire, I always tell them this - "Stand your ground, but if you ever get into some real trouble, there's no harm in asking me. When I can, I try to watch your plays, too."

Sure, I've booted calls, and I've had umpires tell me both on the field and off the field (and definitely on this forum) that I was wrong. I'd rather have someone tell me at the appropriate time than not tell me at all. In fact, I deeply appreciate it (which is why I love this forum).

As for the coaches, well, there's a reason why they have rule books - they're to be read to know the rules! There's also a reason why they have protests - they're to be used when humans make mistakes!

But I would never try to set aside another umpire's call unless I'm asked by that umpire, even if I know I'm 110% right. It only creates confusion on the field, and does a huge disservice to my partner by taking his/her authority away.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

Batter steps in box, defensive coach requests time and protest illegal player; not in lineup. PU checks lineup, agrees, and make an ASA ruling, ejecting the batter. This is an NFHS game and BU knows that unnounced sub is legally in game, but says nothing. Obviously a wrong call; player has been kicked out of the game due no fault of her own; but coach was unsure of the rule so the play stands.

This one I'm going to verify and correct if possible. This one is fixable, and is a mis-interpretation of a rule. I'm goin up and saying "partner, can I talk to you about this real quick? I think you may have the ASA penalty confused with the NFHS penalty... let's make sure we're 100% correct on this before we tell little Suzy she can't play for the rest of the game."

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

Varsity game, two good teams, but kind of a low key game. Two outs, R1 comes off 2B on the pitch. Ball is returned to F1; R1 stops and slowly starts back towards 2B. F1 raises her throwing hand with the ball; R1 stops and looks at F1. BU calls R1 out for LBR violation. R1 starts to object, then runs off field. I (PU) am looking for the O coach, but she says nothing (she may not have seen F1's play attempt either). So I let it go and wander down the base line to confer with partner while teams are changing.

I'd treat this as a judgement call, and no, I'm not going to correct my partner on this. His judgement is his judgement... just like I wouldn't on a bang-bang play at 1B where he called out and I saw safe (unless help was asked, etc).

[Steve M]

I'm with SRW, Bret, Greymule on this.
Your first issue is a rule issue and that can & should be fixed.
Your second is judgement - unless partner speaks & makes it a rule issue - and we live with partner's judgement. I think it was Bret that pointed out - the rules forbid one umpire from seeking to influence & overturn another umpire's judgement call.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Steve M

I'm with SRW, Bret, Greymule on this.
Your first issue is a rule issue and that can & should be fixed.
Your second is judgement - unless partner speaks & makes it a rule issue - and we live with partner's judgement. I think it was Bret that pointed out - the rules forbid one umpire from seeking to influence & overturn another umpire's judgement call.

Yep, put my name in there, too!

Of course, most of us veterans will find a way to get our partners attention without blatantly injecting ourselves into the discussion.

That gives our partner the opportunity to actually look like a nice guy by agreeing to check with his partner and getting the call correct.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by Steve M

I'm with SRW, Bret, Greymule on this.
Your first issue is a rule issue and that can & should be fixed.
Your second is judgement - unless partner speaks & makes it a rule issue - and we live with partner's judgement. I think it was Bret that pointed out - the rules forbid one umpire from seeking to influence & overturn another umpire's judgement call.

First - the second is not a judgemnt call; it is a mistake in rule application. My partner did not see the pitcher fake a throw; he called the LBR violation only based on what the runner did. But - after the fake, the LBR was off - so he could not call a violation.

Second - I am not talking about judgment plays; I am not talking about overruling a partner; I am a little taken back at some of you guys suggesting otherwise of me.

All that I am asking for is your opinion on what you would do in either of my situations, or any that you've seen where a rule was incorrectly applied through ignorance or not seeing some critical information.

Would you - call time and go talk to your partner?

Forget cutesy little signals; would you stop the game and conference with your partner? Would you say that you have a different interpretation of the rule, or that you saw something different that could have changed his call.

OR

Do you simply say, its not my call. If he comes to me I'll tell him my view. If the coach challenges him and he comes to me, I'll help. Otherwise my attitude is if the coaches are too dumb to protect their players, it not my fault.

Obviously two vary disparate views. Prior to this post, I've mostly hear the later view. What say you today?

WMB

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by WestMichBlue

First - the second is not a judgemnt call; it is a mistake in rule application. My partner did not see the pitcher fake a throw; he called the LBR violation only based on what the runner did. But - after the fake, the LBR was off - so he could not call a violation.

Is not the determination over whether the pitcher actually made or faked a play a judgment call?

[wadeintothem]

I dont think you should rush in to initiate a change of your partners call by requesting the conference yourself.

I think the better approach would be for umpires to be to be willing to question themselves and confer when something just doesnt sit right... and initiate a conference on your call with your partner.

Sometimes you know you blew it, so if possible (within certain circumstances, ESPECIALLY RULES or difficult award situations), initiate the conference and confer and make it EASIER to fix it. You already knew you blew it.. so a quick chat and fix it.

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by greymule

In your first case, I would definitely confer with my partner with an eye to reversing the ruling. His mistake is purely rule.

The case of the LBR is more difficult, since he might have had the correct rule in mind and simply made a lousy call. I'd still confer with him before play resumed, though, just to be sure.

A couple of years ago, a partner I had never worked with before made a horrendous call in the first inning of a game played under ASA rules. R1 on 1B stealing on the pitch. F6 covered 2B but was drawn toward the runner by a very wide throw. So F6 is in R1's way, 8 feet from 2B, without the ball. R1, seeing F6 coming at her, slows almost to a stop and flinches as F6 reaches unsuccessfully for the ball, which goes off her glove and into right center field. F6, unable to stop her momentum, then crashes into a stationary R1.

BU's call? R1 out on a crash.

I started out from behind the plate to approach the BU, but before I had taken two steps, he had tossed the offensive coach. On my fourth step, he tossed an assistant coach.

What a mess. I guess I should have told my partner that he blew the call and should put R1 on 2B, or even 3B depending on how far the ball got away. With two coaches ejected, however, I didn't want to undermine the BU even if he was 100% in the wrong.

Later in the same game, I called IFR, and the runner on 2B ran back to the bag. But F4 was having a little trouble with the high pop, and the runner proceeded a few steps toward 3B. F4 did catch the ball, and seeing the runner off 2B, threw to F6 covering. The runner made it back just in time, which was lucky for me, since the BU gave a strangely delayed and casual "safe" sign. This was because, he explained to everyone, the runner had tagged up, since runners can leave as soon as the IFR is called. (In other words, the moment IFR is called, the ball is considered caught!)

I was going to talk to the guy after the game, but he disappeared immediately. The offensive coach was looking for him, too.

I was going to talk to the guy after the game, but he disappeared immediately.

I hope permantly. Or a least to an authorized umpires' school.

Bob

[NM FP Ump]

Okay, a little help here. Along the same line as the OP, but a little off topic, as usual.

Last weekend’s scrimmage game. R1 on 3rd, R 2 on 2nd, two outs. Ball hit to F6, she throws to 1st, F3 has to stretch to get the ball before BR gets to 1st. I give an emphatic, overhead out signal, and the 1st base coach is pointing at the base and yelling, “She pulled her foot!!” Strangely enough, that was all he said! He didn’t come up to me for anything else, and I didn’t avoid him (took my position on 1st base line extended to watch teams switch and warm up). Maybe he decided it was just a scrimmage game. So I asked my partner, “Did she pull her foot?” He says, “Yes, she did.” Okay, too late to reverse a call, but here is my question:

Should I have gone straight to my partner (PU) for a live ball appeal (in order to “get it right”) or should I wait for the coach to ask for help (i.e. check swing)?

Your opinions, please.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by NM FP Ump

Should I have gone straight to my partner (PU) for a live ball appeal (in order to “get it right”) or should I wait for the coach to ask for help (i.e. check swing)?

Your opinions, please.

Live ball appeal? No, it is not an appeal. It is checking with your partner (I know, it is called an "appeal" by coaches, etc., but it is not an appeal).

I don't hold coaches to magic words. As you describe it, the coach has told you something that he saw that you perhaps didn't. If your partner is in position to have seen the play (remember, he does have other priorities on this play), check with him - point and ask "pulled foot"?

[greymule]

If you had any doubt about the foot, you should have turned to the PU right away, whether the coach had said anything or not. When the coach did speak up, you should have gone to the PU unless you were certain F3 did not pull her foot.

Even after the sides had changed, it would not have been too late to appeal to the PU, since the coach spoke up right away, in effect, if not literally, asking you to check with your partner.

When you appeal to your partner, this is not considered a "live ball appeal" or a "dead ball appeal," such as the defense might make on a baserunning error. It's just you asking for help.