mental mistakes by umpires = ejections

[jumpmaster]

I had an in depth discussion with one of the umpires in our association today regarding ejections.

This was his premise -
In amatuer baseball, mental mistakes by the umpire result in more ejections than player/coach snafus. i.e. An umpire makes a bang, bang call - in amatuer ball - he will probably get the call wrong. An umpire's gross miss on a pitch will bring the coach out to argue, resulting in an ejection. Granted things like BR dropping a shoulder into F3 to break up a play will also result in ejections, but these are the exception rather than the rule.

I am curious to hear what the board has to say about this.

FWIW, I subscribe to HHH's theory of "eject early and often because I like quiet, peaceful games" and I believe that coaches and players will usually do something to warrant their early departure.

[DG]

Originally posted by jumpmaster
I had an in depth discussion with one of the umpires in our association today regarding ejections.

This was his premise -
In amatuer baseball, mental mistakes by the umpire result in more ejections than player/coach snafus. i.e. An umpire makes a bang, bang call - in amatuer ball - he will probably get the call wrong. An umpire's gross miss on a pitch will bring the coach out to argue, resulting in an ejection. Granted things like BR dropping a shoulder into F3 to break up a play will also result in ejections, but these are the exception rather than the rule.

I am curious to hear what the board has to say about this.

FWIW, I subscribe to HHH's theory of "eject early and often because I like quiet, peaceful games" and I believe that coaches and players will usually do something to warrant their early departure.

Your umpire associate is wrong, IMO.

[JRutledge]

That is the problem with many umpires. You are more concerned with getting rid of problems instead of dealing with those problems. If that is the only way you feel you can control a game, then do that. I just think that is the easy way out and does not advance umpiring. I have made mistakes in games and never had to eject a coach or they never complained. It is the way you carry yourself that also has to do with how a coach responds. Because if you have a certain demeanor, they might not even realize you made the mistake in the first place.

Peace

[cbfoulds]

Originally posted by jumpmaster
/SNIP/
In amatuer baseball, mental mistakes by the umpire result in more ejections than player/coach snafus. i.e. An umpire makes a bang, bang call - in amatuer ball - he will probably get the call wrong.

This is about the stupidest, most self-defeatist load of garbage I have ever read.

First of all, even when a umpire kicks a call, the coaches and players are still not justified in making a$$es of themselves by crying and bit&hing about it. If they get obnoxious or just will not STFU after a while, their stupidity is the "cause" of their ejection.

Secondly, what is this "probably get it wrong" BS?
Why in the hell do we buy into the assinine conceit of idiot coaches that they can see what happened in a bang-bang play better from 90 to 150 feet away than we can at 15 feet? In a game coached by a pair of rats, you will catch a ration of crap from one side or the other on every banger. Does this mean you probably got ALL of the calls wrong? Be serious!!

[Rich]

Originally posted by jumpmaster

An umpire makes a bang, bang call - in amatuer ball - he will probably get the call wrong.

Where's Tee's catch phrase when I need it?

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

Where's Tee's catch phrase when I need it?

This one may actually break the tie.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by GarthB
In my experience more ejections come from coaches not understanding the rules, or enforcement thereof, and arguing judgment calls on correctly called plays than on bad calls or umpire error on a ruling. Nearly every ejection I've seen could have been prevented if the coach decided he wanted to stay in the game.

I think that is exactly right. Many times coaches will try to argue a point that does not apply to the level you work. I work mostly NF and NCAA Rules, it never fails to amaze me how many times a coach will complain about the "slide" rule and not understand it. They might think that all contact despite how it happens is warranted an ejection (of the other team of course). Or they will have no idea that a rule changed or that a POE was made about a specific action, but argue with you about what happen last year.

In our State coaches are not required to go to Rules Meetings. It never seems to fail that one coach will not have any idea of a change that was discussed in detail at those meetings.

Peace

[cowbyfan1]

Originally posted by jumpmaster

This was his premise -
In amatuer baseball, mental mistakes by the umpire result in more ejections than player/coach snafus. i.e. An umpire makes a bang, bang call - in amatuer ball - he will probably get the call wrong. An umpire's gross miss on a pitch will bring the coach out to argue, resulting in an ejection. Granted things like BR dropping a shoulder into F3 to break up a play will also result in ejections, but these are the exception rather than the rule.

I would lean to the coach not knowing the rules or just wanting to make an a$$ outta himself as being the main reason. Yeah sometimes it is a blown call on a judgement call that gets the coach going. He also has the ability to stop and keep himself from being dumped.

I had a situation where I rushed a catch/no catch on a shoe-string catch (I ruled it a catch initially). It really made no difference on the play as the runner on first was and would have been forced at second requardless if I had kept my proper timing. Well the coach for the offensive team questioned me on it and I admitted my mistake but also told him that even if I kept my timing the runner would have been out at second. Well that was not good enough for him and he kept on. So even tho I made the mistake, he could have stopped and it would have kept him in the ballgame.

FWIW, I subscribe to HHH's theory of "eject early and often because I like quiet, peaceful games" and I believe that coaches and players will usually do something to warrant their early departure.

I don't feel that there is the need for this really. I call this the terrorist approach to game control. Act like a terrorist long enough and people will be afraid of you. IE dump coaches for any reason and they will be afraid to question anything, thus you get your way. Instead hustle, work hard, learn the rules, look good and be consistant. I have earned respect from coaches, players and my fellow umpires and have had to dump 2 coaches (tho a few other deserved to be) and about 8 or 10 players (all but 1 were little kids for sportmanship issues (ie throwing a bat or glove) and 2 for malicious contact.)

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by cbfoulds

This is about the stupidest, most self-defeatist load of garbage I have ever read.

First of all, even when a umpire kicks a call, the coaches and players are still not justified in making a$$es of themselves by crying and bit&hing about it. If they get obnoxious or just will not STFU after a while, their stupidity is the "cause" of their ejection.

Secondly, what is this "probably get it wrong" BS?
Why in the hell do we buy into the assinine conceit of idiot coaches that they can see what happened in a bang-bang play better from 90 to 150 feet away than we can at 15 feet? In a game coached by a pair of rats, you will catch a ration of crap from one side or the other on every banger. Does this mean you probably got ALL of the calls wrong? Be serious!!

Cbfoulds;

You wrote:

"This is about the stupidest, most self-defeatist load of garbage I have ever read."

I guess you do not read Rut posts.

Several years ago, I wrote a piece about the human brain being unable to determine events less than 0.04 seconds apart. Someone in my local area read this and took the trouble to videotape umpires calling wackers at first base in a training environment. He was able to tape about 50 wackers that were determined by less than 0.04 seconds.

Logically, it would seem that the umpires would get about 50% right. If they are guessing, they should be right half the time. By slowing the the tape, he was able to determine that they got only about 30% right. 50% were definitely wrong and 20% were too close to call even with freeze-frame videotape.

For the portion that he was able to get a definitive answer, the rookie umpires were wrong 62% of the time. Go figure. An article on politics, coach influence, and psychology could be written on why this happened.

You also wrote:

In a game coached by a pair of rats, you will catch a ration of crap from one side or the other on every banger. Does this mean you probably got ALL of the calls wrong? Be serious!!"

There is a school of thought among serious umpires that the answer to your question is yes. They are dead serious. You got them all wrong. (Rich Humphrey, a AAA umpire who worked some MLB ball during a 1980's strike, has a 30 minute presentation on this subject.)

Only when you recognize that you are always wrong, can you formulate a strategy to deal with the chaos. Joseph Stalin did not worry about being wrong. He worried about being obeyed and feared. Although it is not well documented in the West, Joseph Stalin dealt with far more serious uprisings and Muslim rebellions than the current chaos in Chechnya. By regularly executing and torturing large numbers of people, he did not have to deal with terrorist escapades like are currently going on in Russia.

All we have to do is eject them.

Peter

[Sal Giaco]

Originally posted by jumpmaster
FWIW, I subscribe to HHH's theory of "eject early and often because I like quiet, peaceful games" and I believe that coaches and players will usually do something to warrant their early departure.

Personally, I subscribe to the theory that anyone, even someone who has never umpired in their life, can throw someone out of a game (that's fairly easy). However, it takes an experienced umpire to know how to keep players and coaches in the game, i.e. preventitive officiating, defusing situations, nipping things in the bud, etc.

When you get to a certain level of experience, all umpires have pretty much the same ability as far as balls & strikes and safe & outs. What separates the good ones from the great ones is handling situations. I don't know what HHH theory's is all about, but in my opinion, it sounds a little "inexperienced" to me.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by jumpmaster

I had an in depth discussion with one of the umpires in our association today regarding ejections.

This was his premise -
In amatuer baseball, mental mistakes by the umpire result in more ejections than player/coach snafus. i.e. An umpire makes a bang, bang call - in amatuer ball - he will probably get the call wrong. An umpire's gross miss on a pitch will bring the coach out to argue, resulting in an ejection. Granted things like BR dropping a shoulder into F3 to break up a play will also result in ejections, but these are the exception rather than the rule.

I am curious to hear what the board has to say about this.

I disagree with the aforemetnioned statement. The main problem IMO is Umpire InConsistency that causes the ejections, meaning how many times have we heard the phrase "Hey Blue you are the first one to call that" or something along those lines.

From my experience, the coaches that do give umpires a real hard time were not delt with from Game one. By Game 50 it's too late. I realize we all have our own thresholds of tolerence, but in an association there needs to be some consistency and if a coach goes nuts over every close call then they should have been delt with in the beginning of the season not at the end.

Remember for the most part there is going to be a new crew for this coaches next game and if you allow a coach to behave in an unsportsmanlike manner and do nothing about it, you just made it more difficult for the next crew.

The other main point is that some umpires do not want to make the "tough" call which also causes havoc among coaches.
I do not mean the "nit-pickn" call but the tough call like batter's interference when it warrants it.

If you look at most associations, it's probably a good bet that you have a hand full of what the assignor calls his "bread and butter" guys that he/she needs to do his/her "bread and butter" leagues. In other words to have consistency, so that the contract gets renewed.

The rest of the games are filled in.

Therefore, IMO in a nutshell it is Umpire inconsistency that causes most ejections and the fact that behaviors are not tamed right from game 1.

It's like being a parent. If you allow your kids to get away with "murder" and do not discipline them right from the beginning what do you think is going to happen.

Pete Booth

[His High Holiness]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cowbyfan1

Originally posted by jumpmaster
FWIW, I subscribe to HHH's theory of "eject early and often because I like quiet, peaceful games" and I believe that coaches and players will usually do something to warrant their early departure.

I don't feel that there is the need for this really. I call this the terrorist approach to game control. Act like a terrorist long enough and people will be afraid of you. IE dump coaches for any reason and they will be afraid to question anything, thus you get your way. Instead hustle, work hard, learn the rules, look good and be consistant. I have earned respect from coaches, players and my fellow umpires and have had to dump 2 coaches (tho a few other deserved to be) and about 8 or 10 players (all but 1 were little kids for sportmanship issues (ie throwing a bat or glove) and 2 for malicious contact.)

Cowboyfan;

You wrote;

"I have earned respect from coaches, players and my fellow umpires."

Ok, I can understand how you might know if you have respect from your fellow umpires, but how in the world can you know if the coaches and players respect you. Have you:

1. Installed hidden cameras in their locker rooms to listen to their conversations.

2. Commissioned an independent survey to interview coaches and players about your umpiring.

3. Regularly get calls from your assignor telling you that he got postive feedback on your game from coaches and players.

If not, then you are engaged in delusional thinking. If you believe anything that they tell you about your performance, then you are even more delusional. Have you ever heard of an umpire saying:

"The coaches and players don't respect me."

Any umpire worth his salt is convinced that the coaches and players respect them. Have you ever heard of a automobile driver saying anything other than:

"I am a better than average driver."

Not likely. We all engage in delusional thinking by saying we are better than average. Most umpires do the same thing. I seriously doubt that coaches and players have any outside respect for you personally or your indvidual performance as an umpire. By custom, the decent ones among them respect the title that you hold. That's it.

If you are not having problems in your games, it is more likely due to the fear that the local leagues or Athletic Directors have put into the coaches and players. You made a very telling comment in your post when you wrote:

"...and have had to dump 2 coaches (tho a few other deserved to be)"

Why didn't you do your job and dump those coaches that you admitted deserved it?

This tells me that you are a typical average umpire who sweeps discipline problems under the rug for a$$holes like me to clean up in the next game. Consider this:

You are a police chief hiring a policeman for a job and the candidate says to you:

"I have made 2 arrests for drunk driving last year but there were a few others who deserved to be but I let go." Would you hire this guy?

I can honestly say that since I had this epiphany eight years ago that I have ejected every coach and player that deserved to be ejected and maybe a few that did not deserve to be ejected.

I want policeman to arrest every drunk driver and even some who are not drunk but might be. A judge can sort out the innocent ones from the guilty later.

Peter

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by His High Holiness
[/B]

"This is about the stupidest, most self-defeatist load of garbage I have ever read."

I guess you do not read Rut posts.

[/B][/QUOTE]Peter, why don't you take your mindless name-calling,taunting and yourself, back over to McGriffs? That's where you and your Observer friends really belong!

[Atl Blue]

HHH:

I assume all of these bangers were shot using video cameras. Unless you are using some VERY sophisticated professional equipment, video shoots at 30 frames per second. 30 frames per second means one frame every .033 seconds. I accept your theory that the human eye and brain cannot discern the timing of events that are .04 seconds apart. It sounds reasonable, and I have no evidence to think otherwise. I do think, however, that human reactions being variable, the number varies for each person, and therefore could be .05 for some people (or more) and .03 for others (or less).

But if all of these numbers hold, it also means that the video camera cannot discern the difference with much more accuracy than can the human eye and brain. To use video "evidence" means the call was actually not as close as .04 seconds, or you just got "lucky" catching the "actual" moment on video.

I don't dispute that on a banger, it basically comes down to not much more than a guess, and we aren't even getting into the issues of the difference in the rates of sound and light travelling, meaning the ump that relies on the "sight (light)" of the foot hitting the bag versus the "sound" of the glove hitting the mitt has just given an advantage to the runner as well.

In reality, a banger is just that. Like it or not, even the best umps are making a guess sometimes. Sometimes we guess "right", sometimes we guess "wrong". But I do not think our "guesses" are any more right or wrong than on calls that were decided by more than .033 seconds, which are the only ones that video could conclusively verify as "right" or "wrong", than they are on calls that were more distinct. In other words, every ump misses the not so close ones occassionally. One would hope that missing these decreases with experience, but I know that is not always true.

Sometimes we miss them. But there is an old saying that I was taught in one of my very first clinics MANY years ago:

Whether I'm right or whether I'm wrong, I'm right.

[His High Holiness]

Originally posted by Sal Giaco
I don't know what HHH theory's is all about, but in my opinion, it sounds a little "inexperienced" to me.

Sal;

I wrote an eleven part series on this. If you are a subscriber, here is the link to part one which will provide links to all eleven parts. If you are not a subscriber, you can still read the synopsis of each.

http://baseball.officiating.com/x/article/3320

If I remember correctly, you went to pro school. Years ago, pro school umpires were taught to eject early and often. This is nothing new. In the articles, I modified the strategy for the amatuer and especially, the youth ball umpire.

Peter