Foul tip?

[greymule]

ASA FP. B1 swings and nicks a pitch, which goes sharp and direct off F2's hand and then deflects off her shoulder to become lodged behind the chest protector. F2 reaches inside the protector, removes the ball, and holds it securely.

Is this a foul tip?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by greymule

ASA FP. B1 swings and nicks a pitch, which goes sharp and direct off F2's hand and then deflects off her shoulder to become lodged behind the chest protector. F2 reaches inside the protector, removes the ball, and holds it securely.

Is this a foul tip?

I would say yes, but you are going to get one helluva argument if there are baserunners advancing during this period. It won't be a valid argument, but when has that ever stopped a coach?

[3afan]

its not a foul tip - must go directly from bat to glove

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by 3afan

...a foul tip - must go directly from bat to glove

..or hand.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

..or hand.

which is what the scenario offered.

[Dutch Alex]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

which is what the scenario offered.

It can't be direct into the hand if it was lodged into the protector (as the scenario offered...).

[greymule]

It can't be direct into the hand

But it can be direct to the hand, and that's the word the rule book uses. Every code I know is the same as far as that part of the foul tip rule is concerned. Any differences usually lie in whether a defensive player other than F2 can catch a foul tip. What I'm trying to find out is whether straight from the bat to the hand/glove and then into uniform or equipment is still a foul tip, and whether various codes differ on this aspect of the rule.

[greymule]

I spoke too soon about "every code I know." The NCAA rule [A.R. 11-6] is almost unbelievable in its ambiguity:

"A ball travels directly from the bat, in a straight line, to the glove or bare hand and is deflected straight up into the air. If the catcher then legally catches the ball without moving her feet forward or sideways, it is a foul tip. If it is not caught by the catcher or the rebound is off a body part other than the catcher's glove or bare hand, it is a foul ball, not a foul tip."

So the catcher cannot move her feet (plural? how about one foot?) sideways or forward and still catch a foul tip.

1. Nicked ball goes straight to the glove and pops a few inches out to the side. F2 moves her right foot to the side and catches the ball. Foul ball, I guess. Or maybe moving one foot is OK.

2. Does "rebound off a body part other than the catcher's glove (that's a body part?) or bare hand" mean the first rebound? How about bat to glove to chest to hand?

3. Not long ago somebody asked whether a foul tip could be caught in fair territory. In NCAA softball, only if the catcher doesn't move her feet forward or to the side.

4. How about bat to glove to chest protector to hand if the catcher moved both feet before making the catch?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dutch Alex

It can't be direct into the hand if it was lodged into the protector (as the scenario offered...).

That would be true if that is what the rule stated, but it doesn't.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

I would say yes, but you are going to get one helluva argument if there are baserunners advancing during this period. It won't be a valid argument, but when has that ever stopped a coach?

You wouldn't treat it as a blocked ball? ASA 8-5-G & R/S17?

[bigsig]

Definitions: "Foul Tip: A batted ball that goes sharply and directly from the bat to the catchers hand(s) or glove/mitt and is legally caught by thwe catcher."

So in this situation if you ruled it was a legal catch it is a foul tip.

[SWFLguy]

^^^^^^

Correct ! Foul Tip--runners may advance at their own risk.

I had a similar protest situation years ago in men's fast pitch. I was the local UIC and it I was eventually involved in a 3 way conference call with then ASA UIC Tom Mason.
There is no time limit between the ball going directly/sharply to the catcher's hand/mitt and being legally caught. The ball could even bounce upward for some time before the catcher made the catch.

[BretMan]

The problem with calling this a "blocked ball" is that it does not fit any part of the "blocked ball" definition found in rule 1.

For that matter, it doesn't fit any of the requirements found in rule 8-5-G or R/S #17 either! A properly worn chect protector is neither loose equipment nor detatched equipment.

Baseball- the other white meat- has rules that cover a ball entering a player's uniform or becoming lodged in the catcher's gear. From previous discussions I seem to recall that ASA has no such rule and my quick flip through the rule book didn't turn one up.

Absent such a rule, I guess this is just a plain old foul tip- which may go from sharply and directly from the bat, first touch the catcher's hand or mitt, rebound from any part of the catcher's person or equipment, then be securely held in a manner which meets the legal requirement of "a catch".

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by SRW

You wouldn't treat it as a blocked ball? ASA 8-5-G & R/S17?

No, because it isn't a blocked ball (as BretMan noted).

The ball became stuck in official equipment properly worn by the DEFENSE over which the DEFENSE has total control. Now, if the ball entered and became lodge, stuck or took on any status to which the defense did not have immediate and unrestricted access to the ball, then it is a Dead Ball.

Check out 8.5.M

[Steve M]

Mike,
Didn't the original post state that the ball was lodged, and that the catcher reached in & got it? Maybe nit-picking, but if it's lodged I would think it should be dead.