Live ball appeal

[AtlUmpSteve]

As your heading states, this is a live ball appeal. That can only be made by a player touching the missed base or the runner with the ball. Too bad, catcher, being correct doesn't validate the appeal by someone doing neither.

Not a valid appeal, cannot be honored (or even responded to). Not really a conflict; "the defense" doesn't change the requirement that it be handled properly.

[Dholloway1962]

Just curious...what happened after the ball became dead. Did catcher appeal again? If so, wouldn't runs score and third out be called, assuming BR never "retouched" 1st base and continued on to 2nd?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Just curious...what happened after the ball became dead. Did catcher appeal again? If so, wouldn't runs score and third out be called, assuming BR never "retouched" 1st base and continued on to 2nd?

A dead ball appeal is not available on this play unless the BR proceeded to a base other than 1st which did not happen. Also, no runs can be scored if the BR is the 3rd out of the inning.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Yep, I agree with Steve and Sean and anyone else who stated the appeal wasn't valid.

I kicked the call on a play which ended up non-existent. As Sean suspected, my mind was so wrapped up on the double base rule, I lost sight of the defender making a live ball appeal being the one with possession of the ball, although F3 made the same appeal to BU, but not until he release a throw toward 3B.

However, like I said, the play did not count, so the missed ruling had no affect on the game.

However, it does raise another question. What happens when a pitcher, catcher or any other infielder screams at F3 to "tag him" and then states aloud toward an umpire, "he missed the base". Obviously, as the umpire you know what is happening, but F3 doesn't have a clue why he is tagging the runner. Do you honor that one even though F3 is not the one verbalizing the appeal?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Yep, I agree with Steve and Sean and anyone else who stated the appeal wasn't valid.

I kicked the call on a play which ended up non-existent. As Sean suspected, my mind was so wrapped up on the double base rule, I lost sight of the defender making a live ball appeal being the one with possession of the ball, although F3 made the same appeal to BU, but not until he release a throw toward 3B.

However, like I said, the play did not count, so the missed ruling had no affect on the game.

However, it does raise another question. What happens when a pitcher, catcher or any other infielder screams at F3 to "tag him" and then states aloud toward an umpire, "he missed the base". Obviously, as the umpire you know what is happening, but F3 doesn't have a clue why he is tagging the runner. Do you honor that one even though F3 is not the one verbalizing the appeal?

Well, I'm no mind-reader, so if I see an act such as the one you mentioned that is, in all probability, an act of an appeal, I might grant it. The lightbulb may have gone off in his head, and without verbalizing it himself, he tagged the runner. It is not an appeal "by accident."

Very grey area, as live ball appeals do not need to be verbalized.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Very grey area, as live ball appeals do not need to be verbalized.

They do if the umpire doesn't know why they are doing something.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

They do if the umpire doesn't know why they are doing something.

If a catcher yells to F3 "tag him, he missed the base," and F3 does so, I'd say I have a pretty good indication as to why F3's tagging him.

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

However, it does raise another question. What happens when a pitcher, catcher or any other infielder screams at F3 to "tag him" and then states aloud toward an umpire, "he missed the base". Obviously, as the umpire you know what is happening, but F3 doesn't have a clue why he is tagging the runner. Do you honor that one even though F3 is not the one verbalizing the appeal?

I don't have the rulebook near me, so I can't be sure if it says the live ball appeal has to have a verbal along with it or if the act of the tag is considered the actual live ball appeal.

Like I said, I just can't "see" the wording on this one in my mind like some of the other situations.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by JPRempe

I don't have the rulebook near me, so I can't be sure if it says the live ball appeal has to have a verbal along with it or if the act of the tag is considered the actual live ball appeal.

Like I said, I just can't "see" the wording on this one in my mind like some of the other situations.

In ASA, there is nothing that says that for a live ball appeal to be valid, the fielder with the ball must say something. We grant it all the time - short fly ball to the outfield gets caught, but the runner on 2B left early, thinking it's a hit. Outfielder throws it to shortstop before the runner returns. Out.

In the second situation Mike presented (catcher calling out that BR hit the white bag and not the orange, then F3 tags the runner), I'd say this can be an acceptable live ball appeal. It's clear to everyone WHY F3 is tagging the runner, and ASA allows non-verbal live ball appeals. In this case, it's the "why" that's important.

[JPRempe]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

In ASA, there is nothing that says that for a live ball appeal to be valid, the fielder with the ball must say something. We grant it all the time - short fly ball to the outfield gets caught, but the runner on 2B left early, thinking it's a hit. Outfielder throws it to shortstop before the runner returns. Out.

In the second situation Mike presented (catcher calling out that BR hit the white bag and not the orange, then F3 tags the runner), I'd say this can be an acceptable live ball appeal. It's clear to everyone WHY F3 is tagging the runner, and ASA allows non-verbal live ball appeals. In this case, it's the "why" that's important.

Roger that, and I agree, but like I was saying, I usually can visualize words from books like that, but today is just not my day. Stomach flu/virus/plague is just killing my concentration right now...

[MD Longhorn]

To me, since the ONLY reason F3 could be chasing and tagging a BR who has passed first would be for some sort of an appeal, I think the mere act of initiating a tag in this case is pretty strong evidence that there's an appeal being made.

[celebur]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Yep, I agree with Steve and Sean and anyone else who stated the appeal wasn't valid.

I kicked the call on a play which ended up non-existent. As Sean suspected, my mind was so wrapped up on the double base rule, I lost sight of the defender making a live ball appeal being the one with possession of the ball, although F3 made the same appeal to BU, but not until he release a throw toward 3B.

So, in hindsight, how would you recommend this be handled? Would you, as PU, simply ignore the invalid appeal? Would you reply? If so, how?

I am particularly curious because it's happened to me with runners missing home and heading for the dugout. F2 receives the ball and verbally appeals the missed base, but the ball is still live but F2 never tagged the plate nor the runner. Should I be ignoring this invalid appeal? Or say something? (I don't want to acknowledge the appeal because it isn't one, but I also don't want to be coaching the defense here).