Dead Ball Advancement

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Then if that's how you'd rule, you're really working completely backwards. The award is made based on when the ball became dead. If the runner in the OP HAD tagged up, advances to 2B, and THEN the ball became dead, you should have him going to 3B.

You're reading too much into the "legally touched" part of the rules supplement (no mention of which is even in 8.5.J - it just says "last base touched," not "legally touched"). I think what ASA is referring to is things like kicking dirt onto the bag as you run past it, throwing your batting glove down onto the bag ("Well, I 'touched' it, blue!"), running the bases in reverse order to make a travesty of the game (though I haven't given much thought as to how that could even work in this situation), etc.

It's spelled clearly in the book, and it's spelled clearly on this forum. Dude, it's okay to admit you're wrong. Both Mikes have done it to me on many an occasion, and I'm okay with that. That's why I'm here, and I have to say my game has gone up a LOT since I started coming here. Here, I can get the real answers!

My suggestion: admit you're wrong, do a little more research, and stop beating this dead horse. You'll get the respect of the other members here if you do.

If you don't read RS#27 then you have missed the point of the OP which dealt with the circumstance of a fielder making an out and falling into dead ball territory.

The rule supplement adds the word LEGALLY between the words last and touched. There was a reason that word was added. It defies logic for you to contend that "it is spelled our clearly in the book" when you ignore the rule supplement.

No matter how many times posters change the scenario the central point is RS#27 clarifies the base to award when conditions meet the OP.

This board is valuable for discussing various plays and rules interpretations which leads me to discuss them with my fellow umpires and assigners.

On this one my peers support the interpretation I have outlined.

They are all ASA umpires.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

The rule supplement adds the word LEGALLY between the words last and touched.

No, it doesn't. It is a clear reference to rule 8-3-B, which I even posted for you word for word. It might help if you actually read the rule before trying to apply the RS.

According to rule 8-3-B, is passing a base considered a legal touch or not?

Or you could invest your money in an ASA Case Book and read case play 8-8-32, but if you did that, you might find yourself in a dilemma... do you continue to believe the Calvin Ball interpretations by your fellow fist pumpers or do you actually start calling the game by the rules?

Bottom line, here, is you are wrong in your ruling, your friends are wrong if they agree with your ruling, and you are wrong in your understanding of RS 27. You can insist all you want. You can even hold your breath until you are blue, but that does not change the fact, plain and simple fact, that you are wrong.

[greymule]

The last part of RS27 is out of date: "Defensive players cannot take advantage and intentionally throw or step into a dead ball area in order to prevent a runner who has missed a base or left a base too soon from returning to the base. If it is ruled that the defensive player intentionally threw the ball or stepped into the dead ball area, allow the runner to return to the base."

This is old wording that dates from the time when, in ASA, a runner who, when the ball became dead, was on or beyond the base missed or left too soon could not legally correct his error. With ASA's rule change of a couple of years ago, a runner can return to correct a mistake unless he advances to the next base after the award is made.

As for your OP, jimpiano, "There are none so blind as those who will not see."

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by Dakota

No, it doesn't. It is a clear reference to rule 8-3-B, which I even posted for you word for word. It might help if you actually read the rule before trying to apply the RS.

According to rule 8-3-B, is passing a base considered a legal touch or not?

Or you could invest your money in an ASA Case Book and read case play 8-8-32, but if you did that, you might find yourself in a dilemma... do you continue to believe the Calvin Ball interpretations by your fellow fist pumpers or do you actually start calling the game by the rules?

Bottom line, here, is you are wrong in your ruling, your friends are wrong if they agree with your ruling, and you are wrong in your understanding of RS 27. You can insist all you want. You can even hold your breath until you are blue, but that does not change the fact, plain and simple fact, that you are wrong.

RS#27 is a clear extension of rule 8-5-j since both refer to a fielder carrying a ball into dead ball territory. That was the subject of the OP

Rule 8-5-j uses the term "last base touched" in awarding the base(s) for the ball going into dead ball territory. RS#27 puts the word "legally' between last and base.

If you deny this then you must not have read the rule and the supplement.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

RS#27 is a clear extension of rule 8-5-j since both refer to a fielder carrying a ball into dead ball territory. That was the subject of the OP

Rule 8-5-j uses the term "last base touched" in awarding the base(s) for the ball going into dead ball territory. RS#27 puts the word "legally' between last and base.

If you deny this then you must not have read the rule and the supplement.

You, sir, are exceedingly foolish in how you selectively read the book.

The rule book is a totality. Words are used within the rule book with meanings defined by the rule book. Rule 8-3-B defines what ASA means by "legally touched." If you refuse to understand and accept that, they you are just being hardheaded.