Dead Ball Advancement

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

The question was "what" base is r1 entitled to?

Let's see, according to the rule cited it is one base from the time the ball became dead. OP stated the runner had passed 2B.

1 + 2 = 3

Pretty simple, huh?

[Mountaineer]

Am I missing something here? I'm sleep deprived so maybe I am . . . Wasn't this a caught flyball and the runner was "off and running". Wouldn't 1st base be considered the last base touched since they would have to tag up on the caught fly ball? Or do you award 3rd and they have to go back and re touch or risk being out on appeal?

Did I just answer my own question?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

Am I missing something here? I'm sleep deprived so maybe I am . . . Wasn't this a caught flyball and the runner was "off and running". Wouldn't 1st base be considered the last base touched since they would have to tag up on the caught fly ball? Or do you award 3rd and they have to go back and re touch or risk being out on appeal?

Did I just answer my own question?

R1 is past second when umpire declares dead ball

Pretty clear to me the last base touched was 2nd.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

R1 is past second when umpire declares dead ball

Pretty clear to me the last base touched was 2nd.

OK Mike, I'm disputing that. She has to retouch 1st - right? Then she gets 3rd? For some reason that just seems wrong to me.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

OK Mike, I'm disputing that. She has to retouch 1st - right? Then she gets 3rd? For some reason that just seems wrong to me.

Mike is 100% correct.

8-5-J: When a live ball is unintentionally carried by a fielder from live ball territory. Effect: The ball is dead and runners are awarded one base from the last base touched at the time the fielder left live ball territory.

Since R1 had already touched 2B BEFORE the fielder left live ball territory, R1 is awarded 3B. However, they must touch 2B, then touch 1B to "tag up" after the ball was caught. Then, they must retouch 2B and advance to their awarded base, which is 3B. If they fail to touch any of those bases in that order, the defense may appeal a missed base. Yes, it seems like a lot of unncessary running, but hey, those are the rules.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

OK Mike, I'm disputing that. She has to retouch 1st - right? Then she gets 3rd? For some reason that just seems wrong to me.

For the purpose of rule application, softball, at least ASA, considers any base passed is a base touched. There is no rule which demands a runner return to touch a base missed or left too soon. However, there is a rule which places that runner in jeopardy and available to be ruled out on appeal should they not do so.

[CecilOne]

You two should be writing the rule supplements.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

You two should be writing the rule supplements.

I hope and pray that you're not referring to me, because I'd probably re-write the whole book!

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

OK Mike, I'm disputing that. She has to retouch 1st - right? Then she gets 3rd? For some reason that just seems wrong to me.

I agree with you that the rule abandons common sense.

If the fielder remained in play and as the runner was retreating to first base the ball is overthrown out of play, the runner gets third---2 bases.
In this case a one base award puts the runner at the same place.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

I agree with you that the rule abandons common sense.

If the fielder remained in play and as the runner was retreating to first base the ball is overthrown out of play, the runner gets third---2 bases.
In this case a one base award puts the runner at the same place.

The difference in the above-mentioned scenario and the OP is simple. One player made a great play, and the other play blew it.

So what are you proposing, jimpiano? Award one base for both rules or two bases?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

I agree with you that the rule abandons common sense.

If the fielder remained in play and as the runner was retreating to first base the ball is overthrown out of play, the runner gets third---2 bases.
In this case a one base award puts the runner at the same place.

First ... this is the same base awarded in the initial situation. 3rd base on both.

Second, your statement is not true at all if the runner is still past 2nd base when the throw toward first base is released. If he is ... he gets home. The direction he's running is irrelevant.

[NCASAUmp]

Basically, jimpiano, a fielder unintentionally carrying a live ball into dead ball territory (such as in the OP you described) is a small "oops." One base from base last touched.

A fielder throwing poorly is a big "oops." Two bases from base last touched when the ball was released. Keep in mind I'm saying this with a little "tongue in cheek."

I don't know ASA's rationale behind every rule, and I frankly have too many things going on with work right now to ponder it. So in the end, I call what they give me for a ruleset.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

OK Mike, I'm disputing that. She has to retouch 1st - right? Then she gets 3rd? For some reason that just seems wrong to me.

You could not possibly be at the level you claim and mistake this one.

Read the rule. If you still think you have it right, read the rule again.

Quote for us where it says anything about retouching, or legally touched bases, or anything of the sort. Good luck there, as these words only appear in Jim's ASA Calvinball book.

The rule is simple - the LAST BASE TOUCHED... what they have to do otherwise is irrelevant.

[jimpiano]

Rule Supplement #27 reads in part:

(T)he base award is governed from the last base [B]legally[B] touched at the time the ball became dead.

The runner cannot have legally touched any base beyond first since he is required, by the rules, to tag first base after the catch to legally advance.

Even the award of second base is not legal unless the runner retouches first or the defending teams forgoes an appeal.

No runner can legally advance to any base if he in jeopardy of being called out for missing a previous base.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

You could not possibly be at the level you claim and mistake this one.

Read the rule. If you still think you have it right, read the rule again.

Quote for us where it says anything about retouching, or legally touched bases, or anything of the sort. Good luck there, as these words only appear in Jim's ASA Calvinball book.

The rule is simple - the LAST BASE TOUCHED... what they have to do otherwise is irrelevant.

Rule Supplement #27 reads in part:

(T)he base award is governed from the last base [B]legally[B] touched at the time the ball became dead.

Even the award of second base is not legal unless the runner retouches first or the defending teams forgoes an appeal.

The runner cannot have legally touched any base beyond first since he is required, by the rules, to tag first base after the catch to legally advance.

No runner can legally advance to any base if he in jeopardy of being called out for missing a previous base.