Dead Ball Advancement

[SRW]

I wouldn't waste any more effort on jimpiano, guys.

Assume a hypothetical situation that jimpiano is at an ASA championship play tournament. Also assume the situation in the OP happens, and he awards 2B on his field. Then assume he allows the offensive coach's protest by double fist pumping for the UIC.

He'll lose his protest. He'll argue with the UIC over the rule interpretation. And he won't be working any Sunday games because of it.

All that means is that the rest of us working at said hypothetical championship play tournament will now have a better chance at working Sunday.

So don't worry about it. We know he's wrong, but he won't accept that he's wrong. It'll all pan out in the end.

[jimpiano]

But if he had tagged up, you'd give him third?

Of course not.

[azbigdawg]

Jimpiano..

give me the name of someone who'e rule interpretations you respect....someone on the national level. I will call and get their ruling on this....Im not sure if you are really this obtuse, or are trying to stir up something. Usually in this forum, (99.999 percent of the time) you are going to have the correct answer to a question within hours, if not MINUTES after you post the question. The people here ARE that good....

You have been given the correct answer to this problem, and you refuse to acknowledge it. So who do you want me to call for a ruling on this play? Name them. Ill call.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by SRW

I wouldn't waste any more effort on jimpiano, guys.

Assume a hypothetical situation that jimpiano is at an ASA championship play tournament. Also assume the situation in the OP happens, and he awards 2B on his field. Then assume he allows the offensive coach's protest by double fist pumping for the UIC.

He'll lose his protest. He'll argue with the UIC over the rule interpretation. And he won't be working any Sunday games because of it.

All that means is that the rest of us working at said hypothetical championship play tournament will now have a better chance at working Sunday.

So don't worry about it. We know he's wrong, but he won't accept that he's wrong. It'll all pan out in the end.

Not to worry.

Saturday my assignment is the ASA Championship Tourney in Class D.

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by azbigdawg

Jimpiano..

give me the name of someone who'e rule interpretations you respect....someone on the national level. I will call and get their ruling on this....Im not sure if you are really this obtuse, or are trying to stir up something. Usually in this forum, (99.999 percent of the time) you are going to have the correct answer to a question within hours, if not MINUTES after you post the question. The people here ARE that good....

You have been given the correct answer to this problem, and you refuse to acknowledge it. So who do you want me to call for a ruling on this play? Name them. Ill call.

Send a runner to Rome then.

The rule book is plain on this one.

Second base is the answer.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

OK you caught me . . . it's no wonder people are afraid to post stuff, they get attacked personally. I guess I could give you my supervisor's number if you'd like to verify it. So I over analyzed a play . . . be thankful that you have never done that.

I agree. Let's keep the venom down, guys. I like to think of this forum as a relative "safe haven" for umps to get good, solid advice on rule interpretations and situational handling. I saw nothing wrong with your post, Mountaineer, even though it was a little... off in the interpretation.

Nobody is perfect, guys. Let's keep the gloves on.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

But if he had tagged up, you'd give him third?

Of course not.

Then if that's how you'd rule, you're really working completely backwards. The award is made based on when the ball became dead. If the runner in the OP HAD tagged up, advances to 2B, and THEN the ball became dead, you should have him going to 3B.

You're reading too much into the "legally touched" part of the rules supplement (no mention of which is even in 8.5.J - it just says "last base touched," not "legally touched"). I think what ASA is referring to is things like kicking dirt onto the bag as you run past it, throwing your batting glove down onto the bag ("Well, I 'touched' it, blue!"), running the bases in reverse order to make a travesty of the game (though I haven't given much thought as to how that could even work in this situation), etc.

It's spelled clearly in the book, and it's spelled clearly on this forum. Dude, it's okay to admit you're wrong. Both Mikes have done it to me on many an occasion, and I'm okay with that. That's why I'm here, and I have to say my game has gone up a LOT since I started coming here. Here, I can get the real answers!

My suggestion: admit you're wrong, do a little more research, and stop beating this dead horse. You'll get the respect of the other members here if you do.

[azbigdawg]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Send a runner to Rome then.

The rule book is plain on this one.

Second base is the answer.

So in other words, you have no class or credibility......

Heck I already KNEW that...I just wanted to give you a chance and see if you were serious about your umpiring...apparently not.....just another troll....

ASK SOMEONE...THEY WILL TELL YOU THAT YOU ARE WRONG......

If you cannot at least ASK...you are not deserving of any respect...

[jimpiano]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Then if that's how you'd rule, you're really working completely backwards. The award is made based on when the ball became dead. If the runner in the OP HAD tagged up, advances to 2B, and THEN the ball became dead, you should have him going to 3B.

You're reading too much into the "legally touched" part of the rules supplement (no mention of which is even in 8.5.J - it just says "last base touched," not "legally touched"). I think what ASA is referring to is things like kicking dirt onto the bag as you run past it, throwing your batting glove down onto the bag ("Well, I 'touched' it, blue!"), running the bases in reverse order to make a travesty of the game (though I haven't given much thought as to how that could even work in this situation), etc.

It's spelled clearly in the book, and it's spelled clearly on this forum. Dude, it's okay to admit you're wrong. Both Mikes have done it to me on many an occasion, and I'm okay with that. That's why I'm here, and I have to say my game has gone up a LOT since I started coming here. Here, I can get the real answers!

My suggestion: admit you're wrong, do a little more research, and stop beating this dead horse. You'll get the respect of the other members here if you do.

If you don't read RS#27 then you have missed the point of the OP which dealt with the circumstance of a fielder making an out and falling into dead ball territory.

The rule supplement adds the word LEGALLY between the words last and touched. There was a reason that word was added. It defies logic for you to contend that "it is spelled our clearly in the book" when you ignore the rule supplement.

No matter how many times posters change the scenario the central point is RS#27 clarifies the base to award when conditions meet the OP.

This board is valuable for discussing various plays and rules interpretations which leads me to discuss them with my fellow umpires and assigners.

On this one my peers support the interpretation I have outlined.

They are all ASA umpires.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Not to worry.

Saturday my assignment is the ASA Championship Tourney in Class D.

Oh, I cannot help myself. This is pretty good since ASA doesn't have a Championship in a Class D anything for another month.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Oh, I cannot help myself. This is pretty good since ASA doesn't have a Championship in a Class D anything for another month.

jimpiano = pwn3d.

[SRW]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

Not to worry.

Saturday my assignment is the ASA Championship Tourney in Class D.

Where is that again? What division of play? Mens? Slowpitch?

[SRW]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Oh, I cannot help myself. This is pretty good since ASA doesn't have a Championship in a Class D anything for another month.

Aah, you beat me to it.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by jimpiano

The rule supplement adds the word LEGALLY between the words last and touched.

No, it doesn't. It is a clear reference to rule 8-3-B, which I even posted for you word for word. It might help if you actually read the rule before trying to apply the RS.

According to rule 8-3-B, is passing a base considered a legal touch or not?

Or you could invest your money in an ASA Case Book and read case play 8-8-32, but if you did that, you might find yourself in a dilemma... do you continue to believe the Calvin Ball interpretations by your fellow fist pumpers or do you actually start calling the game by the rules?

Bottom line, here, is you are wrong in your ruling, your friends are wrong if they agree with your ruling, and you are wrong in your understanding of RS 27. You can insist all you want. You can even hold your breath until you are blue, but that does not change the fact, plain and simple fact, that you are wrong.

[greymule]

The last part of RS27 is out of date: "Defensive players cannot take advantage and intentionally throw or step into a dead ball area in order to prevent a runner who has missed a base or left a base too soon from returning to the base. If it is ruled that the defensive player intentionally threw the ball or stepped into the dead ball area, allow the runner to return to the base."

This is old wording that dates from the time when, in ASA, a runner who, when the ball became dead, was on or beyond the base missed or left too soon could not legally correct his error. With ASA's rule change of a couple of years ago, a runner can return to correct a mistake unless he advances to the next base after the award is made.

As for your OP, jimpiano, "There are none so blind as those who will not see."