Look Back Rule..

[THREE]

Runner on 3rd. Ball four on batter. Batter/runner runs towards 1st and does not stop and continues on towards 2nd...with no throw from the pitcher to 2nd. Question: can the runner on 3rd remain "off" the 3rd base bag untill the batter/runner reaches 2nd, or does the 3rd base runner have to go back to the bag as soon as the batter runner reaches/passes 1st...i.e. the LBR does not start untill the batter/runner reaches 1st.
Thanks

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by THREE

Runner on 3rd. Ball four on batter. Batter/runner runs towards 1st and does not stop and continues on towards 2nd...with no throw from the pitcher to 2nd. Question: can the runner on 3rd remain "off" the 3rd base bag untill the batter/runner reaches 2nd, or does the 3rd base runner have to go back to the bag as soon as the batter runner reaches/passes 1st...i.e. the LBR does not start untill the batter/runner reaches 1st.
Thanks

As soon as BR touches 1st, the LBR applies - which means your runner "off" third must either go forward or go back, assuming the pitcher is not making a play or faking a play on either runner.

[CecilOne]

Here is an example of following the spirit of the rule and not using it as a "gotcha". A BR who happened to be the batting team catcher, reached 1st safely and the ball was in control in the circle. Then the runner on 1st, expecting a CR as usual, stepped off the base, then back on when the coach said something. Could have been called out, but not in the spirit or intent of the rule.

[MJT]

We are considering "faking a throw" as not just raising the ball, but moving it forward. What are you doing to constitute a fake?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MJT

We are considering "faking a throw" as not just raising the ball, but moving it forward. What are you doing to constitute a fake?

In ASA, it must be an attempt to retire a runner or BR. IOW, if the movement could not reasonably lead to a possible out, it is not a play.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

In ASA, it must be an attempt to retire a runner or BR. IOW, if the movement could not reasonably lead to a possible out, it is not a play.

Not sure where you got that..

Since you are a guru, I'll await clarification in hopes of learning something.

In my view, "faking a throw", whether they move the ball or not, most definitely takes off LBR for the moment.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I dont see where "reasonably lead to a possible out" comes into play.

Pitcher wants her LBR protection, pitcher does nothing.

Thats LBR.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Not sure where you got that..

Not that you couldn't look this up yourself, but:

ASA Rule 1 PLAY.

"An attempt by a defensive player to retire a batter-runner or runner. A pitch is not considered a play except as it relates to an appeal."

ASA Rule 8.7.T.EXCEPTION Ther runner will not be declared out if:
"1. A play is made on any runner. A fake throw is considered a play"


A play is defined as an attempt to retire a player. A fake throw is a play, but then again, any indication of a throw could be a move to retire a player. What isn't a play is the pitcher simply moving the ball. I've seen coaches who want the LBR off just because a pitcher has the ball in her glove and while watching the runners, brings the glove and hand together.

Now that the possibility of putting a runner out is part of the definition of a play, I think that forces the umpire to actually see more than ball or body movement by the pitcher.

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by MJT

We are considering "faking a throw" as not just raising the ball, but moving it forward. What are you doing to constitute a fake?

An umpire judgment of a pitcher's actions does not define a play on the runner. We are asked to judge whether or not a runner reacted to the pitcher's actions (ASA RS 34-J).

If a pitcher takes a quick "jab step" in the direction of the runner, even with the ball at her side, you may not define that as a "play." But if the runner reacts to that motion, you may have cause to remove the LBR temporarily.

WMB

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Not that you couldn't look this up yourself, but:

ASA Rule 1 PLAY.

"An attempt by a defensive player to retire a batter-runner or runner. A pitch is not considered a play except as it relates to an appeal."

ASA Rule 8.7.T.EXCEPTION Ther runner will not be declared out if:
"1. A play is made on any runner. A fake throw is considered a play"

I understand that mike.

There is an additional aspect.. which is runner reaction (as discussed by WMB), that is why I questioned your initial comment. That is a criteria you are not applying here, and I was wondering why.

You can't reasonably protect a pitcher who is taking even fake stabs at runners IMO. They dont deserve that protection and are not entitled to it by rule.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

I understand that mike.

There is an additional aspect.. which is runner reaction (as discussed by WMB), that is why I questioned your initial comment. That is a criteria you are not applying here, and I was wondering why.

You can't reasonably protect a pitcher who is taking even fake stabs at runners IMO. They dont deserve that protection and are not entitled to it by rule.

I believe the RS (nee POE) is out of date. There have been changes in the rules portion which are not reflected in the RS.

This is the first year a "play" has been defined in the rule book. Originally, it didn't even consider the LBR until brought to the attention of those working on the wording.

Also brought to the staff's attention was that the rule exception previously stated that the play on "another" runner dropped the LBR. This was changed in the rule to read "any" runner (as it should), yet this wording has not been incorporated in RS 34.

Of course, there is another way to handle this "cat and mouse" game, isn't there?

[CecilOne]

I understand theapplication of the rule, but maybe not the semantics of this discussion. Please help me follow how a fake throw is an
"attempt by a defensive player to retire a batter-runner or runner"
if the
"movement could not reasonably lead to a possible out".

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I understand theapplication of the rule, but maybe not the semantics of this discussion. Please help me follow how a fake throw is an
"attempt by a defensive player to retire a batter-runner or runner"
if the
"movement could not reasonably lead to a possible out".

Instead of taking partial comments out of multiple posts, let's just address what I stated

In ASA, it must be an attempt to retire a runner or BR. IOW, if the movement could not reasonably lead to a possible out, it is not a play.

I've never said that a "fake throw" was not a play. Obviously, if the pitcher released the ball, the runner could be put out, hence it meets the definition of "play".

That doesn't mean that any movement by the pitcher is a fake throw or a play. A pitcher "rolling" the ball in her hand by her side is movement, but not a play. A pitcher moving the ball back and forth between the hand and glove is a movement, but not a play.

[bkbjones]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That doesn't mean that any movement by the pitcher is a fake throw or a play. A pitcher "rolling" the ball in her hand by her side is movement, but not a play. A pitcher moving the ball back and forth between the hand and glove is a movement, but not a play.

And, if the pitcher has the ball high in the air and the ball starts singing "Oklahoma," it is not a play. It is a musical.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by bkbjones

...It is a musical.

That would depend on the pitcher.