Proof Positive, New Jersey is run by idiots

[FUBLUE]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Now define "general welfare" and "necessary and proper".

There is a reason that only titanium bats have been banned based on the alloy used. It is the only alloy that could be proven to increase the speed of the ball. No other alloy or composite carries that distinction in the world of softball. IOW, there is absolutely no proof that the bat itself causes a dangerous environment. IOW, this law cannot be proven as a remedy, so how would this law be to the benefit of the general welfare, or necessary or proper to enact?

In my mind, it would be "necessary and proper" to return to the whipping post as a means of punishment for convicted criminals because it benefits the "general welfare" of the community. And I have an argument to accompany this. Would a criminal (dealer, user, thief, etc.) knowingly commit a crime in your community where the punishment would be 30 lashes and 5 years or go down down the road where the punishment would be 5-7 years? Granted, many criminals are not that smart and think doing the time is easy, but they know pain.

I'm sure some in your class would be repulsed by the idea of a whipping post. Then ask them, if they had to commit a crime to survive, and had an option of a jurisdiction with flogging as opposed to one without, where would they commit the crime

I think this is a great response, Mike. You bring up points already debated in class. Can you give supporting documentation (and, further, enough public support) to return the whipping post? Can you document that it would actually deter crime? Or, would it cause criminals to, as you put it, go to one without it? This is the MEANINGFUL conversation that happens in a good debate!

I do not have the document in front of me, but I will look for it, so you know I'm not making this up. A study done several years ago showed that punishments do not deter most crimes. The study was about the death penalty (the ultimate punishment in the minds of some). It showed that most murders will openly admit that they did not care what the penalty was; they were going to commit the murder. Having talked to several muderers (as their teacher) they honestly did not care what the penalty was...they were going to do it.

Crimes of necessity? A great topic for debate! Having already debated this, my class decided that there should still be a penalty, but (again, from their experiences) it was still worth it to commit the crime (i.e. stealing money for food or rent or whatever they deemed necessary).

They only way to truly and accurately define necessary and proper is to ask the person who wrote it...and they've been gone for 200 years, so it's up to our ELECTED officials to determine the meaning of necessary and proper.

Then again, with enough public support, any rule can be changed (see ASA men's FP pitching rule over the last 10 years)!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Actually, being from the last state to give up the whipping post, I have been involved in the discussion of the deterent, but that was 35+ years ago. I don't have the time for research, at least not at this time, but if memory serves me correctly, the statistics showed a substantial increase in crime in the state once the judiciary stopped sentencing people to a public flogging/whipping.

As far as people commiting the crime regardless of the sentence, I would question the results of your research unless additional parameters were posed to those interviewed. For example, how many thought they were going to be caught? How many believed if caught, they would actually be convicted and, if so, receive the maximum sentence permitted. How many began their day knowing they would be commiting a crime? How many got up in the morning knowing they were going out and killing someone that day? Would the answer be the same if there was no question that, if caught, they would die? No other options, no 20 years on death row while an indefinite number of appeals are filed. In and out of court and directly to the chair/stretcher/rope/wall?

(Please note, late at night and using "they" simply in a generic form, grammar be damned!)

[wadeintothem]

The main problem is there is very little "punishment".

For nearly all misdemeanors, you will be cited out. Even if arrested on a No Bail warrant for FTA Jail or something like that, you will be cited out.

The county jails are full and the criminals know it.

If you are remanded from the court room to serve say 20-30 days, its very common for the you be out on the streets before the Judge has left for the evening.

You already receive time and 1/2 for "good behavior" - compounded by the fact the jails will release you = you will likely do little time at the county level.

So this means, if you are sentenced to 8 months and you do 2 days and they let you go because they are full, that will be considered as serving your entire sentence.

Then there are work release, probation, behavioral, and diversion programs.

Most probation is court monitored, known as conditional sentence -very few are actual on formal probation where they must report to a probation officer or are subject to the serious threat of a search waiver.

The criminals know the game and they work the system well.. for instance, the real smart criminals will refuse probation and just insist on serving their entire sentence in jail, knowing that they will be released early and not have to deal with the hassle of Violation of Probation issues.

The Justice system is essentially a contract betwen criminals and most are more than willing to not comply with its terms, and as such become the winners.

There are the good people who dont get in trouble with the law.. to those types, the justice system holds a great deterrent effect.

For the criminal element, it is a side line hassle, especially at the county level. Those that mess up and find themselves in prison arent doing so well. but the main criminal element.. the minor level slime balls - they ride free.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

The county jails are full and the criminals know it.

Another issue swift execution of given punishment would handle. Instead of 6-month sentence, make it 30 lashes and 1 month. This should also create a positive turn in the expense of operating correctional institutions.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Another issue swift execution of given punishment would handle. Instead of 6-month sentence, make it 30 lashes and 1 month. This should also create a positive turn in the expense of operating correctional institutions.

Its just not going to happen. besides the fact its been rule cruel and unusual, or surely would be, todays society would not tolerate it. Essentially society is happy thinking criminals are punished, when the reality is, there are a myrid of "outs" provided to criminals of that punishment, including - if they dont agree to comply, there is no real recourse. Your drivers license can only be suspended once, only so many of your fines can be put into collections, before its considered a non issue by said criminal.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by FUBLUE

I do not have the document in front of me, but I will look for it, so you know I'm not making this up. A study done several years ago showed that punishments do not deter most crimes. The study was about the death penalty (the ultimate punishment in the minds of some). It showed that most murders will openly admit that they did not care what the penalty was; they were going to commit the murder. Having talked to several muderers (as their teacher) they honestly did not care what the penalty was...they were going to do it.

Crimes of necessity? A great topic for debate! Having already debated this, my class decided that there should still be a penalty, but (again, from their experiences) it was still worth it to commit the crime (i.e. stealing money for food or rent or whatever they deemed necessary).

Of course there should still be a penalty. Punishment is also about punishment.

For example, the threat of prison may not deter people the first time, (I believe it does on a big level though -and admittedly I dont have numbers in front of me, just personal experience of dealing with these issues every day- not in a class room either) - most people do not want to go back to prison once out. I've literally seen people tatoo on their hand "No mistakes" to remind them not to get into trouble so they dont find themselves back in prison.

For those that Prison does not work on - leave them there for life or until they have no life left 65-70 y/o.

For those that commit capital crimes, execute them (sooner the better). Will it deter? No, but they are punished and gone. Its a nonissue. There is no detering those who will do it whether they will be executed or not. So forget about that end - These people are useless to society and turn your stomach when you look at them. Their momma may miss them, me and you certainly wont.

The BIGGEST fraud on society is behavioral and diversion programs, which are actually excuses to let the criminals the streets because we CANT keep them, so we trick them into thinking we'll be nice and let them out of jail if they do their weekly program or if they be good, we'll dismiss the charges. Its money for the program teachers, thats about it. Rehabilitation is a joke until the person WANTS to rehabilitate. That comes at the point when they have hit bottom and been crushed beyond the point of functioning. Crush them sooner, and they probably would want to rehabilitate sooner.

[Skahtboi]

Talk about your thread hijacks, this one takes the cake!!!

We started out discussing the legislation by one state of the rules of a sport, and suddenly it has morphed into a discussion of the US Constitution and Crime and Punishment (apologies to Dostoevsky).