Game over or keep playing?????????

[Keith]

Long time reader-first time poster.
Situation: Bottom of 6th. 2 outs, 3-2 count Batter checks her swing......or did she - P/U asks B/U "Did she go" B/U signals swing. Now the tricky part-
Games are 1:15 time limit. When the ball crossed the plate there was still time on the clock ( 2 seconds ), by the time the B/U signled swing time had expired. I've asked many differant umps whose opion I value & the opions have been split, Some say, game over out was made after time had expired, others saying the strike out occured with time on the clock & since it was a correctable situation go to the 7th. What do you think?

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by Keith

Long time reader-first time poster.
Situation: Bottom of 6th. 2 outs, 3-2 count Batter checks her swing......or did she - P/U asks B/U "Did she go" B/U signals swing. Now the tricky part-
Games are 1:15 time limit. When the ball crossed the plate there was still time on the clock ( 2 seconds ), by the time the B/U signled swing time had expired. I've asked many differant umps whose opion I value & the opions have been split, Some say, game over out was made after time had expired, others saying the strike out occured with time on the clock & since it was a correctable situation go to the 7th. What do you think?

I'm inclined to say that the inning ended when the BU indicated "SWING" = game over.

Different but same?: Time expired 2 seconds AFTER a 3rd out, but defense properly dead ball appeals an advantageous 4th out after time has expired. (Oh goodness, there it is again.) By Rule 1's "Inning - ...A new inning begins after the final out of the previous inning," I would state that the game is over (since it doesn't say "after the 3rd out.").

[whiskers_ump]

Start a new game....Game over

[Andy]

Two points:

1. What would have happened if the PU had not gone for help? Ball 4, runner at first, next batter. Time would expire during this activity and you finish the inning.

2. This batter is not out until a call is made that puts her out. Since the PU is asking for help on the check swing, he has most likely judged the pitch a ball. The batter is not out until the BU declares that she swung for the third strike.

Either way....time has expired, ball game is over.

[LLPA13UmpDan]

What a stupid time limit.

[JEL]

Who was it that said...."It ain't an out 'til I calls it an out"?


Final out occured when BU said "yes". Game over!

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by LLPA13UmpDan

What a stupid time limit.

time limit too long?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by LLPA13UmpDan

What a stupid time limit.

Why is everything that is different from your area "stupid". This is becoming an annoying trend from you.

[mcrowder]

The out occurs when the out occurs, cliches not withstanding. The out does not occur when it's called. In fact, there are outs that we don't call (obvious fly balls, etc).

So if you are going by the book here, you have another inning.

I suspect, however, that 95% of the umpires you come across will not notice the time on the clock at the moment of the check swing (whether the not-noticing is intentional or not is probably split fairly evenly).

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

The out occurs when the out occurs, cliches not withstanding. The out does not occur when it's called. In fact, there are outs that we don't call (obvious fly balls, etc).

So if you are going by the book here, you have another inning.

I suspect, however, that 95% of the umpires you come across will not notice the time on the clock at the moment of the check swing (whether the not-noticing is intentional or not is probably split fairly evenly).

I dont agree - the clock doesnt stop during any other "ask for help", so it wouldnt stop in the last seconds either. Its as legit a use of time to go for help on this as it is to appeal. The out here does not occur til the BU signals strike on the help. PU calls ball then goes for help.

Your interpretation leads to a soccer like scenario where time would get added on for this or that throughout the game, thus making life suck

[mcrowder]

The crux of the question is: When does the out occur - when it's called or when the event being called happens.

Similar to a timing play, right...

So extend your logic to this scenario:

0-2 count, 1 out. R1 on 3rd, R2 on 3rd. Batter checks, R2 is stealing. Catcher throws down to 2nd, R2 is caught in a rundown, R1 takes off and scores well before R2 is out. NOW, F2 asks for an appeal and BU (right or wrong) rings up the batter.

So when, now, did the strikeout occur? Right then when it was appealed? If so, no run - the 3rd out occurred before BR reached first base. (Absurd, right?). No, the out "occurred" back when he swung for the 3rd strike, meaning the third out was actually R2. Run scores.

Same logic in the OP. The out occurs when the 3rd strike occurs, regardless of how long it takes to call it.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

The crux of the question is: When does the out occur - when it's called or when the event being called happens.

Similar to a timing play, right...

So extend your logic to this scenario:

0-2 count, 1 out. R1 on 3rd, R2 on 3rd. Batter checks, R2 is stealing. Catcher throws down to 2nd, R2 is caught in a rundown, R1 takes off and scores well before R2 is out. NOW, F2 asks for an appeal and BU (right or wrong) rings up the batter.

So when, now, did the strikeout occur? Right then when it was appealed? If so, no run - the 3rd out occurred before BR reached first base. (Absurd, right?). No, the out "occurred" back when he swung for the 3rd strike, meaning the third out was actually R2. Run scores.

Same logic in the OP. The out occurs when the 3rd strike occurs, regardless of how long it takes to call it.

I disagree with you on when it occurs.

Its not an out until its called. Its not the act, its the call, especially if there is a completely valid use of time between time.

Now if theres a check swing and the ump goes and gets a burger and comes back and calls strike, thats not a valid use of time

but in your scenario, all that play was valid and part of the game and the clock would not have stopped in inning 1 any more than it would in the wanning moments.

[CecilOne]

I see no logic or reality to "Its not an out until its called"

An appeal of a force out is based on when the force was "in force"; the out still occurs when the play is made.
A runner crossing the plate in the instant between the BR being beaten to 1st by the ball and the umpire's call or signal does not score.
If a play occurs that results in an out, but it is not determined to be an out unti after consultation with an UIC; it still happened when it happened and no umpiring delay changes that.

An out is an out, umpires just announce what happened. Even on a timing play or dead ball appeal, the out occurred during play, not later when the umpire rules.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

0-2 count, 1 out. R1 on 3rd, R2 on 1st.
Batter check swings, R2 is stealing. Catcher throws down to 2nd, R2 is caught in a rundown, R1 takes off and scores well before R2 is out. NOW, F2 asks for an appeal and BU (right or wrong) rings up the batter.
So when, now, did the strikeout occur?
Right then when it was appealed? If so, no run - the 3rd out occurred before BR reached first base. (Absurd, right?).
No, the out "occurred" back when he swung for the 3rd strike, meaning the third out was actually R2. Run scores.

After some editing, an excellent discussion question in itself, even though the right answer was posted with the question.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

I dont agree - the clock doesnt stop during any other "ask for help", so it wouldnt stop in the last seconds either. Its as legit a use of time to go for help on this as it is to appeal. The out here does not occur til the BU signals strike on the help. PU calls ball then goes for help.

Then what would you do if during a play at 2B, the throw clearly beats the runner and the tag is made before a runner crosses the plate. However, the umpire delays his call looking for the ball. By the time the ball is presented and the BU rules the runner out, the runner has crossed the plate.

Score the run?

The out occurs when the play occurs. The fact that there was a hesitation in the declaration of the out should be irrelevant to the application of corresponding rules.