Throwing to F3 playing behind R1. (OBR)

[Lapopez]

I have some confusion about this play mostly from hearing interpretations by TV announcers. I have heard that, based on 8.05(d), this is a balk—-unless F3 is making an attempt to move towards the first base bag. I disagree with this because, in my opinion, a base is either “occupied” or “unoccupied” based on its occupancy by a runner, not a fielder. In my opinion, 8.02(c) is the applicable rule. I would rule NO BALK and apply the penalty noted for 8.02c. Am I correct?

[Rich]

Originally posted by Lapopez
I have some confusion about this play mostly from hearing interpretations by TV announcers. I have heard that, based on 8.05(d), this is a balk—-unless F3 is making an attempt to move towards the first base bag. I disagree with this because, in my opinion, a base is either “occupied” or “unoccupied” based on its occupancy by a runner, not a fielder. In my opinion, 8.02(c) is the applicable rule. I would rule NO BALK and apply the penalty noted for 8.02c. Am I correct?

No.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Lapopez
I have heard that, based on 8.05(d),

8.05(d) is not the applicable rule here. Your contention that the runner (and nto the fielder) occupies the base is correct, but irrelevant.

[rmstone]

Ask a pro!

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/of...ure=montagueqa

"The first baseman has to be in the vicinity, in an area where he can make a play when the pitcher throws over. If he's not in that vicinity where he can make a tag, then it's a balk."

[Lapopez]

Is there a rule reference to back this up?
(BTW thank you for your *helpful* response)

Paul Lopez

[rmstone]

I'm not doubting a pro umpire...

Closest rule I can find is 8.02(c)

"Intentionally delay the game by throwing the ball to players other than the catcher, when the batter is in position, except in an attempt to retire a runner. PENALTY: If, after warning by the umpire, such delaying action is repeated, the pitcher shall be removed from the game."

However this isn't a balk, just a warning... but according to the ask a pro question this has been called in the major leagues...

[DG]

Originally posted by Lapopez
Is there a rule reference to back this up?
(BTW thank you for your *helpful* response)

Paul Lopez

The rule is clarified in PBUC 6.5(a): "The pitcher shall be charged with a balk if he attempts a pick-off at first base and throws to the first baseman who is either in front of or behind first base and obviously not making any attempt at retiring the runner. However, there is no violation if the pitcher throws the ball directly to first base in this situation. Also note there is no violation if the pitcher attempts a pick-off at second or third and throws to an infielder who is in front of or behind either of these bases (ie. this violation is only in reference to pick-offs at first base."

[mick]

Originally posted by DG

The rule is clarified in PBUC 6.5(a): "The pitcher shall be charged with a balk if he attempts a pick-off at first base and throws to the first baseman who is either in front of or behind first base and obviously not making any attempt at retiring the runner. However, there is no violation if the pitcher throws the ball directly to first base in this situation. Also note there is no violation if the pitcher attempts a pick-off at second or third and throws to an infielder who is in front of or behind either of these bases (ie. this violation is only in reference to pick-offs at first base."

Thanks, DG.
I'm smarter than I was.
mick

[Rich]

Originally posted by Lapopez
Is there a rule reference to back this up?
(BTW thank you for your *helpful* response)

Paul Lopez

You didn't ask for a reference. And why would you EVER believe a TV announcer. The only people more ignorant of baseball rules are the people sitting in the bleachers behind the plate. The NAPBL/PBUC interp is all you need.

The reason for this interpretation is the same as the reason that you can't fake to first. It would be too easy to keep a runner close if the pitcher didn't actually have to throw to first base. F1 could simply throw to F3 playing in front of the bag or behind the bag without F3 even being in position to receive a throw and make a play.

[Lapopez]

Originally posted by mick
Also note there is no violation if the pitcher attempts a pick-off at second or third and throws to an infielder who is in front of or behind either of these bases (ie. this violation is only in reference to pick-offs at first base."

[/B]

Would the penalty for 8.02c then apply for the second and third base cases?

[Rich]

Originally posted by Lapopez

Would the penalty for 8.02c then apply for the second and third base cases? [/B]

No, because it isn't a balk to not throw to second or third base. All the pitcher has to do is step more towards an occupied base than an unoccupied one. He can then throw the ball anywhere, even to the shortstop or the second baseman playing in their normal positions.

Reason? It is legal to feint to second or third. Since the pitcher doesn't have to throw at all, he's not required to throw to the base.

PBUC 6.4(l): There is no violation if a pitcher attempts a pick off at second base and seeing no fielder covering the bag, throws to the shortstop or second baseman, neither of whom is in the vicinity of the bag nor is making an actual attempt to retire the runner.

--Rich

[mick]

Originally posted by Lapopez

Would the penalty for 8.02c then apply for the second and third base cases? [/B]

This was DG's helpful information, not mick's

[Lapopez]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser

No, because it isn't a balk to not throw to second or third base. All the pitcher has to do is step more towards an occupied base than an unoccupied one. He can then throw the ball anywhere, even to the shortstop or the second baseman playing in their normal positions.

Reason? It is legal to feint to second or third. Since the pitcher doesn't have to throw at all, he's not required to throw to the base.

PBUC 6.4(l): There is no violation if a pitcher attempts a pick off at second base and seeing no fielder covering the bag, throws to the shortstop or second baseman, neither of whom is in the vicinity of the bag nor is making an actual attempt to retire the runner.

--Rich [/B]

No more confusion. Thanks everybody.

Paul