playing with 4

[Nevadaref]

BktBallRef and I would request some opinions of others on the penalty for playing with only 4 when you have others available.
Please consider casebook play 10.1.9
The crux of our debate seems to be two-fold:
1. When should the T be called, if at all?
2. What is the strict rule and what is the practice?

BktBallRef please reply to this post and give your answers to these questions:
1. Team A has a throw-in after a time-out. Team A is ready, team B is still at their bench after both horns. Official gives A1 the ball and he passes it in to A2 who scores. Team B now has only 4 players run out onto the court. B1 inbounds the ball to B2 who proceeds up the court. At this time B5 is still on the bench and remains there. He does not enter the court or even go to the table.
If my understanding of your opinion is correct, you would not call a T and claim that team B has not gained an advantage by playing a man down. Is that correct?
I would call the T at this point for 10-1-9. While I agree that they have not gained an advantage, they clearly have violated a rule and I think that you would be wrong not to enforce it.
2. During play B2 runs to the team bench and sits down. The game continues and his team is on defense. Team A makes no immediate attempt to score, but is just passing the ball around.
I call a T for 10-3-4. Would you have no advantage and play on?
3. The Hoosiers movie. A5 fouls out. Coach Gene Hackman tells you, "My team is on the floor." He has only 4 on the court and team member A6 is healthy and eligible on his bench.
I inform him that he may either play A6 or forfeit the game. Would you allow them to play with 4 as it is certainly not to their advantage?

Hopefully, these plays will help clarify our positions on this rule and make for a better debate.

[Edited by nevadaref on Nov 14th, 2002 at 04:44 PM]

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
BktBallRef and I would request some opinions of others on the penalty for playing with only 4 when you have others available.
Please consider casebook play 10.1.9
The crux of our debate seems to be two-fold:
1. When should the T be called, if at all?
2. What is the strict rule and what is the practice?

BktBallRef please reply to this post and give your answers to these questions:
1. Team A has a throw-in after a time-out. Team A is ready, team B is still at their bench after both horns. Official gives A1 the ball and he passes it in to A2 who scores. Team B now has only 4 players run out onto the court. B1 inbounds the ball to B2 who proceeds up the court. At this time B5 is still on the bench and remains there. He does not enter the court or even go to the table.
If my understanding of your opinion is correct, you would not call a T and claim that team B has not gained an advantage by playing a man down. Is that correct?
I would call the T at this point for 10-1-9. While I agree that they have not gained an advantage, they clearly have violated a rule and I think that you would be wrong not to enforce it.

No T. There is no penalty for *this* infraction.

2. During play B2 run to the team bench and sits down. The game continues and his team is on defense. Team A makes to immediate attempt to score, but is just passing the ball around.
I call a T for 10-3-4. Would you have no advantage and play on?

Team A is not moving the ball forward or attempting to
score? This I most likely treat as an injury timeout,
especially if B2 limped, hobbled, crawled, or somehow
managed to just barely make it to the bench.

3. The Hoosiers movie. A5 fouls out. Coach Gene Hackman tells you, "My team is on the floor." He has only 4 on the court and team member A6 is healthy and eligible on his bench.
I inform him that he may either play A6 or forfeit the game. Would you allow them to play with 4 as it is certainly not to their advantage?

Hopefully, these plays will help clarify our positions on this rule and make for a better debate.

Me? If this happens to me I'm going to pull my massive
sword out and in a single blow separate his head from
his neck, muscles bulging, long blondish hair blowing in the
wind, very "Conan the Barbarian". Hey, this is my post,
I'll use the movie I want, thank you very much. And after
the game Hale Berry, Anna Kournikova & I are going out for
some brownpops.

[Mark Dexter]

Not TH, but here goes my answers:

Originally posted by Nevadaref

1. Team A has a throw-in after a time-out. Team A is ready, team B is still at their bench after both horns. Official gives A1 the ball and he passes it in to A2 who scores. Team B now has only 4 players run out onto the court. B1 inbounds the ball to B2 who proceeds up the court. At this time B5 is still on the bench and remains there. He does not enter the court or even go to the table.

We're not going to get to B5 on the bench, because I'm giving a T as soon as the B players run on to the court without properly reporting to the scorer.

2. During play B2 run to the team bench and sits down. The game continues and his team is on defense. Team A makes to immediate attempt to score, but is just passing the ball around.
I call a T for 10-3-4. Would you have no advantage and play on?

Depends on why he leaves. I tend to agree that the T should only be called here if B2 comes back or leaves the court to avoid a screen, etc.

3. The Hoosiers movie. A5 fouls out. Coach Gene Hackman tells you, "My team is on the floor." He has only 4 on the court and team member A6 is healthy and eligible on his bench.
I inform him that he may either play A6 or forfeit the game. Would you allow them to play with 4 as it is certainly not to their advantage?

It may be a disadvantage, but it's not permitted by rule.
I think your ruling is correct - there is no justification for a T, simply the possibility of a forfeit because A refuses to field a complete team.

[Nevadaref]

Part 1.
Dan, No T, for this infraction? Have you read 10-1-9?
Mark, Why must the Team B players report to the scorer? They never were substituted for, they are merely returning to the floor after a time-out. Maybe that was not clear in my post.
Part 2.
Allow me to clarify that the player who leaves is not injured. Let's say he is merely frustrated with his teammates for not passing him the ball and chooses to not play anymore.
Part 3.
Dan, Since Mark and I have both forfeited our games, may we join your amazing post-game activities?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]

Me? If this happens to me I'm going to pull my massive
sword out and in a single blow separate his head from
his neck, muscles bulging, long blondish hair blowing in the
wind, very "Conan the Barbarian". Hey, this is my post,
I'll use the movie I want, thank you very much. And after
the game Hale Berry, Anna Kournikova & I are going out for
some brownpops. [/B][/QUOTE]Geeze,I don't know,PeeWee! I kinda get a different picture of you in my mind.I see you dancing on the bar,up on your toes, in your suit and bow-tie.Then after that,I see you going to a movie all by youself,buying the large popcorn with EXTRA butter,then sitting in the back row all by yourself,and......

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Part 1.
Dan, No T, for this infraction? Have you read 10-1-9?

Yep, this refers to B5 running in late. According to
your play, B5 never got his butt off the bench.

Part 2.
Allow me to clarify that the player who leaves is not injured. Let's say he is merely frustrated with his teammates for not passing him the ball and chooses to not play anymore.

Then this kid is definitely injured in a very serious way
and it's not my problem, it's the coach's problem.

Part 3.
Dan, Since Mark and I have both forfeited our games, may we join your amazing post-game activities?

Mark? Yes, if he promises to leave separately.
You? No way, no how.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Geeze,I don't know,PeeWee! I kinda get a different picture of you in my mind.I see you dancing on the bar,up on your toes, in your suit and bow-tie.Then after that,I see you going to a movie all by youself,buying the large popcorn with EXTRA butter,then sitting in the back row all by yourself,and......

I know you are but what am I??

[BktBallRef]

#1 - No T. B5 never returned to the floor. THe official was correct in putting the ball in play. now, I'm waiting for Coach B to call a TO, so that he can get B5 into the game.

#2 - WHy would a player do this? If he's injured, I'll stop the game so he can be replaced.

#3 - "No, sorry coach, you can't do that." Mistakes happen where only 4 return from a TO. But making a request to only play 4 is not within the rules.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Mark, Why must the Team B players report to the scorer? They never were substituted for, they are merely returning to the floor after a time-out. Maybe that was not clear in my post.

Yeah - that wasn't clear. If play started without them on the court, they can't just run on without reporting and being beckoned (what I thought happened).

[just another ref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref
[B]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Part 1.
Dan, No T, for this infraction? Have you read 10-1-9?

Yep, this refers to B5 running in late. According to
your play, B5 never got his butt off the bench.
[b][quote]

Whether he returned late or not at all, either way he
"failed to return to the court at approximately the same time" as the other players. My interpretation = Team Technical (10-1-9)

[rainmaker]

Personally, I've always interpreted 10-1-9 as TH is, but I don't have any authority to claim. Where's DeNucci when you need him!?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
#1 - No T. B5 never returned to the floor. THe official was correct in putting the ball in play. now, I'm waiting for Coach B to call a TO, so that he can get B5 into the game.

#2 - WHy would a player do this? If he's injured, I'll stop the game so he can be replaced.

#3 - "No, sorry coach, you can't do that." Mistakes happen where only 4 return from a TO. But making a request to only play 4 is not within the rules.

Agreed on all.