Game over or keep playing?????????

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

"Game over" in the OP means the out did not occur until called/announced.
How is that consistent?

OK, so if the OP's play happened in the first inning and in the last seconds of the game the coach says to you "but blue you delayed 20 seconds in the first inning on a call that was overturned"

You would give him that time added on at the end?

I'm saying you have to be consistent with time management and the play that happened, happened, the clock didnt stop.

In timed games I have stopped the clock, like when a player got hurt and it was clear excessive time was going to be used, and i did it just to be fair.

In the case above, the clock didnt stop just because the original call was overturned by help.

Timing plays are just that and a specific thing. I made a incorrect statement that was easily shown to be false with an UNRELATED play; however, the logic I used to address the OP still stands IMO.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

-By the logic of the discussion, we're saying that on dead ball appeal play, the out is occurring when the umpire rules on it, correct? (I.E. A runner missing second base on the way to third is appealed after TIME is called, and is subsequently ruled out - this did not become an out until ruled upon, correct?)

Almost exactly... although it's conceivable that this difference MAY be important if timing was VERY close - the out occurs when the APPEAL occurs (such as in the case of a live ball appeal at 2nd on a failed tagup ... when the ball hits F6's glove), not the second or two later when BU signals the out.

Remember - in ANY of these cases, we are merely announcing results - the timing of the event we are ruling on is what is important, not the timing of when we announce the decision. The difference in timing is usually negligible, but in the cases of "Show me the ball!!!" and "Did he go?" the timing is not negligible.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

OK, so if the OP's play happened in the first inning and in the last seconds of the game the coach says to you "but blue you delayed 20 seconds in the first inning on a call that was overturned"

You would give him that time added on at the end?

Now I think you're just trolling. You know that's not the case...

Timing plays are just that and a specific thing. I made a incorrect statement that was easily shown to be false with an UNRELATED play; however, the logic I used to address the OP still stands IMO.

No, the logic you used to address the OP hinges on the mistaken thought that it is the ANNOUNCEMENT of the out that matters, when in ALL cases, it is the EVENT that caused such announcement that matters.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Now I think you're just trolling. You know that's not the case...



No, the logic you used to address the OP hinges on the mistaken thought that it is the ANNOUNCEMENT of the out that matters, when in ALL cases, it is the EVENT that caused such announcement that matters.

the trolling comment was lame. For some reason I thought you might could do better than that in a debate.

Now,

The EVENT here is a INITIAL CALL, followed by ACTION, followed by a SECOND CALL on the original call. That is the total even. There isnt separate events, its all one event.

All of the time used was perfectly legitimate. The clock didnt stop after the initial call here anymore than it would at any other point in the game. Youre changing a running clock simply because of the time remaining. We dont roll back a clock/stop the clock at ANY OTHER point because of an appeal/help/overturned call.. yet you are making the argument we do so just because of time remaining. thats inconsistent.

[HawkeyeCubP]

It seems like this is getting a bit convoluted with unecessary items thrown into the mix. The crux of the ruling should be the answer to the question of when the out occurred.

Wade -

The book says that a new inning begins after the final out of the previous inning. (Rule 1)

When ruling on an appeal play, the out is not happening until the appeal is asked and ruled upon.

When GOING FOR HELP/REQUESTING ASSISTANCE from another umpire on the field, the out is happening at the time of the play - not at the time of the ruling.

The example plays earlier given, I think, were very good examples of why this makes sense - i.e. the out occurs when the out occurs, not when the umpire signals it after winding up for a punchout, etc. - or the other example of an obvious out on a caught fly ball - although I've been taught - contrary to baseball mechanics - to signal on every caught fly ball or obvious out, regardless of how obvious it is - say it takes an umpire who went out on the fly ball 5 steps to stop running before they signal the catch -- the out occurred when the fielder caught the ball - not when the umpire signaled the out.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

It seems like this is getting a bit convoluted with unecessary items thrown into the mix. The crux of the ruling should be the answer to the question of when the out occurred.

Wade -

The book says that a new inning begins after the final out of the previous inning. (Rule 1)

When ruling on an appeal play, the out is not happening until the appeal is asked and ruled upon.

When GOING FOR HELP/REQUESTING ASSISTANCE from another umpire on the field, the out is happening at the time of the play - not at the time of the ruling.

The example plays earlier given, I think, were very good examples of why this makes sense - i.e. the out occurs when the out occurs, not when the umpire signals it after winding up for a punchout, etc. - or the other example of an obvious out on a caught fly ball - although I've been taught - contrary to baseball mechanics - to signal on every caught fly ball or obvious out, regardless of how obvious it is - say it takes an umpire who went out on the fly ball 5 steps to stop running before they signal the catch -- the out occurred when the fielder caught the ball - not when the umpire signaled the out.

thats the part that convolutes it..

You guys are retroactively stopping the clock. Going back and adding time on the game in a soccer manner. "Well because of this play I'll go back"

The out doesnt matter, the thing that matters is that live ball play continued past the expiration of the clock, a play was reversed on dead ball appeal, and, according to some of you, the clock adjusted to the play.

since this doesnt happen at any other point in the game, it cant happen. the clock doesnt stop, time doesnt get added on. this isnt football or soccer.

If you adjust the clock here, why wouldnt it be adjusted in any other inning?

You cant just make up a new rule.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

thats the part that convolutes it..

You guys are retroactively stopping the clock. Going back and adding time on the game in a soccer manner. "Well because of this play I'll go back"

The out doesnt matter, the thing that matters is that live ball play continued past the expiration of the clock, a play was reversed on dead ball appeal, and, according to some of you, the clock adjusted to the play.

That's just it - it's not a dead ball appeal. It's not an appeal at all. It's "going for help." You're interchanging those two things. The example previously given on going for help on a check swing after runners have advanced and a run scored disproves what you're insinuating. It doesn't matter what occurred between the batter offering at the pitch and the umpire ruling swing - the swing, and subsequent 3rd out occurred before any of that happened.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

the trolling comment was lame. For some reason I thought you might could do better than that in a debate.

Maybe it was lame... but it was in response to a pretty absurd stretch of someone else's point.

The EVENT here is a INITIAL CALL, followed by ACTION, followed by a SECOND CALL on the original call. That is the total even. There isnt separate events, its all one event.

Yes - it's all one event - but that point is irrelevant.

All of the time used was perfectly legitimate.

Second time you've brought this up. I don't know what the difference might be in your mind between legitimate and illegitimate time, but it is completely irrelevant. How a particular stretch of time is "used" has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

The clock didnt stop after the initial call here anymore than it would at any other point in the game.

Right - the clock doesn't ever stop. What's your point?

You're changing a running clock simply because of the time remaining. We dont roll back a clock/stop the clock at ANY OTHER point because of an appeal/help/overturned call.. yet you are making the argument we do so just because of time remaining. thats inconsistent.

I'm making no such argument. I'm not suggesting we roll back anything. (Perhaps this misunderstanding of my point is what led you to the statement that I labelled trolling earlier). The clock doesn't stop. So what.

What matters is two things:
1) An inning begins IMMEDIATELY after the 3rd out of an inning occurs.
2) The third out occurs when it occurs, not when it's called.

Very simple really. In the OP, the 3rd out OCCURRED before time expired. No clock rolling required - when did the out occur is the ONLY question you need worry yourself about.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

thats the part that convolutes it..

You guys are retroactively stopping the clock. Going back and adding time on the game in a soccer manner. "Well because of this play I'll go back"

The out doesnt matter, the thing that matters is that live ball play continued past the expiration of the clock, a play was reversed on dead ball appeal, and, according to some of you, the clock adjusted to the play.

since this doesnt happen at any other point in the game, it cant happen. the clock doesnt stop, time doesnt get added on. this isnt football or soccer.

If you adjust the clock here, why wouldnt it be adjusted in any other inning?

You cant just make up a new rule.

For some reason, you're obsessed with the clock. No one is adding time to the clock or reversing time at all. Forget the clock for a minute.

The timing of an out coincides with the moment of occurence of that out. Not the time it was announced by the umpire. This is consistent throughout any time that TIMING is important. When deciding whether an out occurred before or after another event (such as a runner scoring, or yes - such as the end of the game due to time constraints), it is the timing of the out occurring that matters, not the time that the umpire announces it.

In the OP, it is very simple - the third out occurred before time ran out. The fact that the clock continued running and ran out before the umpire was able to announce the out is immaterial.

The thing that kills me here is that in your logic, had the PU ruled that the batter swung, he would have called the out before time expired and you'd go to another inning - but because the umpire failed to notice or recognize the swing, and only upon appeal did the strike get called, you feel it's fair to end the game. In other words, the only thing causing the game to end is the delayed call. That's wrong on every level.

[CecilOne]

Any chance there are only two seconds left on this topic?

tick, tick

[debeau]

It aint out until the Ump calls it !

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by debeau

It aint out until the Ump calls it !

Nice cliche - too bad it's wrong - and completely misleading in so many ways.

[debeau]

Well !
When does a strike out occur ?
When the ball goes over the plate
When the ball hits the glove of the catcher
When the Ump decides it is a strike
When the Ump indicates a strike

When does a catch occur
When the ball is held in the glove or hand
When the Ump decides it meets the definition of a catch
When the Ump indicates an out

mcrowder
You obviously say when the out occurs and thats true but isnt that at the same time as the Ump decides its out .
What are you doing up at this hour .
Here in New Zealand 7-50 am 0 degress (celcius ) snow on the hills around
5 weeks to the first game although I am calling a practice game or what you guys call a scrimmage (I think) this weekend

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by debeau

Well !
When does a strike out occur ?
When the ball goes over the plate
When the ball hits the glove of the catcher
When the Ump decides it is a strike
When the Ump indicates a strike

When does a catch occur
When the ball is held in the glove or hand
When the Ump decides it meets the definition of a catch
When the Ump indicates an out

mcrowder
You obviously say when the out occurs and thats true but isnt that at the same time as the Ump decides its out .
What are you doing up at this hour .
Here in New Zealand 7-50 am 0 degress (celcius ) snow on the hills around
5 weeks to the first game although I am calling a practice game or what you guys call a scrimmage (I think) this weekend

The answers to your questions are in the ASA Rule Book.

Refer to 7-6-A through S "Batter is Out" and 8-2-A through N "Batter-Runner is Out." Specifically, note the absence of any such phrase "and when the umpire signals/calls OUT" in each subsection.

[debeau]

It aint out till the Ump DECIDES its out then .
So if a runner slides into a base and is tagged , we hold our call , get the picture (ball , runner, fielder ) decide (we have an out ) then indicate .
The tag occurred 2 seconds before the time was up but the out was after .
Game over .