Does a coach ever win an argument?

[mcrowder]

In games you've worked, have you EVER had a coach come out for an argument and win? Not including requests for me to ask partner for help on a pulled foot or swipe tag, I could not come up with any from games I've worked, and only 1 from games I played.

The one (20 years ago):

Tight bases until ball is hit, R1 on 2nd was a slow female. Male batter hits a screaming line drive to pitcher, who catches it. He turns, sees my runner off 2nd and fires to F6, who tags the base, and R1 is called out.

I go out to argue, and calmly ask him if my runner left the bag before the ball was hit (which would be an automatic out). He says no. I then ask how much time elapsed between the hit and the catch. He agrees with me that it was microseconds. I convince him that R1's reactions couldn't have been quick enough for her to have left both AFTER the hit and BEFORE the catch, and that in fact she was still on the base when the catch was made, and then started running before she realized the ball was caught. He replayed the play in his mind, agreed and reversed the call. Surprisingly, the opposing coach didn't complain or argue at all.

[CecilOne]

You were on your way to becoming an umpire and explaining calls in a way the coach couldn't get.

[bluezebra]

If a manager/coach came out to argue with me, it was back to the bench or the parking lot. If one came out to DISCUSS a call, then we talked.

Bob

[BretMan]

I liked this part of the post:

"I go out to argue, and calmly ask him..."

Mcrowder, you sure do have some kind and gentle arguments! Is a "calm argument" anything like a "quiet riot"? Next time you go out to "argue" we want to see some veins bulging and some spit flying!

But that does illustrate the point that Bob posted. If you had charged out of the dugout with both guns blazing, the odds of getting this call changed would have gone way down.

The past few years I coached and played in an adult co-ed slow pitch league. I had several calls reversed by calmly requesting time and slowly stating my case.

My ability to get those calls reversed was more a testament of my calm approach- and of how crappy some of the umpires were!- than of any unusual powers of persuasion that I might possess. Of course, it helped on these calls that I knew the rule and the umpire didn't!

And they were all rule application issues. You, mcrowder, successfully got a judgement call reversed, so you get extra points for that!

*Edited to add: Oh, yeah...I just thought of another one. About 20 years ago, after unsuccessfully questioning a "foul" call in a game, I filed a protest and the call was reversed about three days later. So on that one, I lost the initial battle but eventually won the war.

[fastpitch]

Our resident UIC and the local umpire association president were kind enough to offer friendly advice early on to me as a coach about treating umpires with respect and calmly approaching them. I continue to learn from them currently as a first year umpire. I had lots of calls reversed as a coach. If I could not think of anything to say that was remotely plausible I stayed in the dugout so as not to ruin my credibility with the umpires. If I could think of any premise on which to say blocked, pulled, rule interpretation, etc. that's my job as a coach. I still hate to hear arrogant umpires brag about how they don't ask for help even when it might be warranted.

The worst or best depending on your perspective, appeal I ever made was in an ISA tournament - we were losing the semi final to an inferior team, 30 seconds remaining confirmed with PU, 2 outs, no runners on base. I told the PU I would like to just take the out for the next batter and proceed to the next inning. He let me do it and the other team did not complain until after we beat them by several runs in the next inning. They never put up the money to protest, though there was a lot of discussion after the game, and we went on to win the tournament.

Yes, I could have told the batter to step across HP after the pitcher was ready and have done that too in other games, not always called though and the other coach could have called time. It's a shame we have to deal with time limits but a reality. In our area the ASA umpires are by far the best followed by the smaller associations, excluding NF and NCAA of course.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by fastpitch

The worst or best depending on your perspective, appeal I ever made was in an ISA tournament - we were losing the semi final to an inferior team, 30 seconds remaining confirmed with PU, 2 outs, no runners on base. I told the PU I would like to just take the out for the next batter and proceed to the next inning. He let me do it and the other team did not complain until after we beat them by several runs in the next inning. They never put up the money to protest, though there was a lot of discussion after the game, and we went on to win the tournament.

That is disgusting! A team should not have to pay to get an umpire to do the job correctly.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by fastpitch

I still hate to hear arrogant umpires brag about how they don't ask for help even when it might be warranted.

What about arrogant coaches who think they can intimidate umpires into changing a call or into giving them a call in return?

[fastpitch]

That just opens up the "It's about the players, not about the coaches or the umpires". If you are intimidated every time a coach protests, ... As a former coach, I have very little tolerance of a demonstrative coach that does not know the rules but if they approach in a professional manner they should be treated with the same respect we demand.

After 10 years of coaching travel ball, this was the appeal I most remember and totally agree with Mike - the poor PU had no clue - the other team had out played us to that point. I prefer to remember the ones where we won the tournament outright. I've served as a youth fastpitch tournament director where I kept the protest fee, etc ,etc.

All I can hope for is to get better at umpiring every game - reading this forum helps but there is certainly no substitute for game experience.

[tcannizzo]

One of my favorite lines was from Caddyshack when Rodney Dangerfield went to the tournament official with a fist full of bills and said, "Keep it fair, keep it fair".

[ChampaignBlue]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That is disgusting! A team should not have to pay to get an umpire to do the job correctly.

Mike, your association doesn't require a refundable deposit for protests? Where I was it was $10 and the park district sprung for a soda for each of the protest committee members who were otherwise unpaid. If the protester won, refund, if he lost, tax deductable donation to the park district.

[fastpitch]

We took the tournament committee to Outback on a $100 protest fee one year. Ours are usually $50 or $100 locally.
Georgia High Schools do not allow protests by state adoption but the partners have to handle any protest at the time during the game, fill out the paperwork and be held accountable and possibly even fined if you get it wrong if I understand correctly.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by ChampaignBlue

Mike, your association doesn't require a refundable deposit for protests? Where I was it was $10 and the park district sprung for a soda for each of the protest committee members who were otherwise unpaid. If the protester won, refund, if he lost, tax deductable donation to the park district.

Absolutely not for championship play. If there is a protest, the UIC covers the play with the crew. Gets their call, what they saw and opinions of the play. The UIC will then recap the play, apply the appropriate rule, if necessary. S/he will then talk to both managers, recap the play and give the ruling. As long as neither manager has something to add to the scenario, that's it. If there is more to the story, the umpires will feel the pain for not giving me every bit of information I needed.

What the local leagues may do is their business.

[ChampaignBlue]

Sorry Mike, league play there's a refundable fee, tourney's, any tourney was protest committee on sight at all times no fees and protests at time of dispute.

When we had parties on protests it was the fines metted out to the umpires for losing protests. Our policy was that if you made a protestable call or your partner did and you didn't correct him/her then you were fined you pay for the set. I can remember it happening only once in the twenty years I worked games and it wasn't me and it was over a local rule. Actually, most of the umpire fine fund was for unpolished shoes and belts or partners not co-ordinating uniforms, no blue and grey games for us.