BOO Argument

[mcrowder]

After an umpiring meeting last night 3 of us who know our rules pretty well were quizzing each other, using scenarios that had happened in our past. We came across 2 scenarios where we could not agree on the proper enforcement, even after looking in the book. Here's the first one:

B3 is due to bat, but B4 bats instead, and hits a double.

B3 then bats, hitting a single, B4 moves to third base (too bad she didn't score, this would be easy).

Defensive coach does and says nothing.

OFFENSIVE coach, realizing his error, calls time and approaches the PU, quietly explaining the error and asking what to do.

What do you tell him?

[Dakota]

I'd tell him, "Coach, BOO is an appeal play that may be made only by the defensive team. You no longer have the option to correct the situation without penalty. Go sit down."

If you are expecting me to give him a hint on who to send up to bat next, no, I won't do that. He's on his own. If he can manage to get by the next two batters without the defense appealing, he's home free.

[Edited by Dakota on Mar 3rd, 2005 at 10:18 AM]

[Steve M]

Yup, I agree with Tom.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota
I'd tell him, "Coach, BOO is an appeal play that may be made only by the defensive team. You no longer have the option to correct the situation without penalty. Go sit down."

If you are expecting me to give him a hint on who to send up to bat next, no, I won't do that. He's on his own. If he can manage to get by the next two batters without the defense appealing, he's home free.

[Edited by Dakota on Mar 3rd, 2005 at 10:18 AM]

Speaking ASA

He only needs to make sure B5 is in the box and s/he gets one pitch, legal or illegal. Then he is home free.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Speaking ASA

He only needs to make sure B5 is in the box and s/he gets one pitch, legal or illegal. Then he is home free.

Well, he's made progress, but not home free. Because the legal batter to follow B3 is B4 (who is on 3rd base). If he can manage to get B4 home while B5 is still at bat, then he can make the penalty-free correction. If B5 completes the turn at bat, then the defense may still appeal BOO for the penalty (B4 declared OUT, B5/B6 due up depending on the result of the play).

If B5 completes the turn at bat, and B6 has one pitch, then he is home free.

Or am I missing something?

[Edited by Dakota on Mar 3rd, 2005 at 02:07 PM]

[mcrowder]

If B5 is legal after one pitch, I'd love to see the rule/explanation that justifies that. None of the 3 of us thought that might be true.

Question - say he sends B5 to the plate for a pitch, and then, finally, defense appeals. B5's pitch has made B3 the legal previous batter. If defense appeals now, B4 is the proper batter - do we rule her out, remove her from 3rd, and put her at the plate? That doesn't seem to jibe with any other interps. Sidebar - can manager PR for B4 at 3rd and then bring B4 to the plate?

[greymule]

If B5 is legal after one pitch, I'd love to see the rule/explanation that justifies that. None of the 3 of us thought that might be true.

The pitch to B5 made the previous batter legal. That was B3. Since B4 is on 3B and cannot be taken off the base, B5 is now the legal batter. One pitch to B5 and everything is water under the bridge.

Question - say he sends B5 to the plate for a pitch, and then, finally, defense appeals. B5's pitch has made B3 the legal previous batter. If defense appeals now, B4 is the proper batter - do we rule her out, remove her from 3rd, and put her at the plate?

No. A runner is never removed from a base to bat in the proper order. See crystal clear 7-2-C-4. With B5 in the box, everything is proceeding fine.

That doesn't seem to jibe with any other interps. Sidebar - can manager PR for B4 at 3rd and then bring B4 to the plate?

No. B4 is legally on 3B and cannot bat.

Another question might be this:

One pitch to B5 legalized B3's at bat. With B4 on 3B, B5 is the proper batter. But what if, with B5 up and having taken a pitch, B4 then gets called out on the look-back rule and is now not legally on base? (I'm sure that once B5's place in the box has been made legal [after a pitch], there's no going back.)

[Dakota]

Originally posted by mcrowder
If B5 is legal after one pitch, I'd love to see the rule/explanation that justifies that. None of the 3 of us thought that might be true.

Not exactly legal, but I think you have given the situation Mike was thinking of. I wouldn't call this "home free" since all the defense has to do is wait until B5 completes the at bat before appealing.

Question - say he sends B5 to the plate for a pitch, and then, finally, defense appeals. B5's pitch has made B3 the legal previous batter. If defense appeals now, B4 is the proper batter - do we rule her out, remove her from 3rd, and put her at the plate? That doesn't seem to jibe with any other interps.

No, no, and no. See 7-2-C-1. The incorrect batter is at bat, so no one is declared out. B4, the correct batter is on base. See 7-2-C-4 (the rule we previously concluded was THE MOST confusing and POORLY WORDED rule in the ENTIRETY of that whole mess called the ASA Official Rules of Softball ). This says we do not remove B4 from base but rather skip her, so B5 is now legal. So, all that appeal accomplished was legalizing the situation!

Sidebar - can manager PR for B4 at 3rd and then bring B4 to the plate?

No, because the PR is the legal sub for B4 and occupies the 4th position in the batting order. Nothing has changed but the jersey number.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by greymule
The pitch to B5 made the previous batter legal. That was B3. Since B4 is on 3B and cannot be taken off the base, B5 is now the legal batter. One pitch to B5 and everything is water under the bridge.

That is only true if appealed while B5 is at bat. If appealed after B5 completes the at bat, but before the first pitch to B6, B4 IS declared out and removed from base, the result of B5's at bat is nullified (excepting any outs on the play) and B5 is brought back to bat (unless B5 was put out on the play, in which case B6 comes to bat).

[Edited by Dakota on Mar 3rd, 2005 at 02:07 PM]

[greymule]

That is only true if appealed while B5 is at bat. If appealed after B5 completes the at bat, but before the first pitch to B6, B4 IS declared out and removed from base, the result of B5's at bat is nullified (excepting any outs on the play) and B5 is brought back to bat (unless B5 was put out on the play, in which case B6 comes to bat).

I suspect you'll change your mind when you think again about this play.

Once they throw a pitch to the next batter, whether that batter is the proper batter or not, the previous batter, whoever it was, became legal. That was B3 in this case. Now that B3's at bat is legal and B4 is on base, the proper batter is B5, no matter who is standing in the box at the time. Since B5 is indeed the proper batter, when he completes his time at bat, he has simply completed a legal time at bat. There's nothing to appeal. The defense's claim that B4 failed to bat in the proper order is false.

Now if the defense appealed before a pitch to B5, that's of course a different story. Then B4 is out, B3 is taken off 3B, and B5 bats.

[IRISHMAFIA]

My, don't we all have very short memories.

Did we not just have a thread regarding ASA 7.2.C.4, which reads:

No runner shall be removed from the base occupied except the batter-runner who has been taken off the base by the umpire as in (2) above to bat in the proper place. The correct batter merely misses the turn at bat with no penalty. The batter following the correct batter in the batting order becomes the legal batter.

Any questions?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
My, don't we all have very short memories.

I didn't forget about that rule, Mike. My argument was that NONE of the effects of 7-2-C come into play UNTIL the appeal. And at the appeal, B4 was not being removed from the base to bat, but was declared out for failing to bat in the proper order.

What you are saying is that 7-2-C-4 comes into play immediately and silently upon the first pitch to B5 and makes B5 legal by merely skipping B4.

I see your point. 7-2-C-4 does not begin with "if the error is discovered" as do 1, 2, and 3. So, it just goes into effect.

My eyes hurt!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota


What you are saying is that 7-2-C-4 comes into play immediately and silently upon the first pitch to B5 and makes B5 legal by merely skipping B4.

I see your point. 7-2-C-4 does not begin with "if the error is discovered" as do 1, 2, and 3. So, it just goes into effect.

My eyes hurt!

The first pitch to B3 means that the defense cannot appeal B4 for batting out of order. The first pitch to B5 means the defense cannot appeal B3 batting after B4. The moment B3 becomes legal, you look for the next legal batter. Since B4 is now legally on base, that batter is skipped and you go to the next batter in the order which is B5.

[Dakota]

I concede the ruling - I was wrong. But, this is just to explain my reasoning.

Assume the offensive coach approached the PU after the first pitch to B5. At that point, 7-2-C-1 says the correction may be made without penalty. Hence, B5 is replaced at bat with the legal batter, which is B4, but since according to 7-2-C-4, B4 cannot be removed from the base to bat, B4 is skipped without penalty. It does not say B4 is not the proper batter. It says IF the proper batter is on base, don't remove the runner to bat but skip the proper batter. Fine.

OTOH, suppose B5 completes the turn at bat and the defense appeals. The rule to be applied is now 7-2-C-2. And 7-2-C-2a says the batter who should have batted is ruled out. The batter who should have batted is B4. 7-2-C-4 does NOT say if the proper batter is on base, the proper batter may not be ruled out for failure to bat. It says the proper batter may not be removed from the base to bat. Hence, my reasoning - B4 is ruled out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota
I concede the ruling - I was wrong. But, this is just to explain my reasoning.

OTOH,

So much for conceding the ruling!!

suppose B5 completes the turn at bat and the defense appeals. The rule to be applied is now 7-2-C-2. And 7-2-C-2a says the batter who should have batted is ruled out. The batter who should have batted is B4. 7-2-C-4 does NOT say if the proper batter is on base, the proper batter may not be ruled out for failure to bat.

Really? And what do you call, "The correct batter merely misses the turn at bat with no penalty?

It says the proper batter may not be removed from the base to bat. Hence, my reasoning - B4 is ruled out.

Want to keep digging? I hear there is some great softball in China!



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