F2: Verbal 'interference'?

[Bluefoot]

Men's ASA SP. Field has no foul lines drawn on it. BR hits fly ball down right-field foul line, and runs towards 1B. BR's back is to PU who is standing at home plate to judge where fly ball lands. Ball lands just inside fair territory. PU gives fair ball signal with arm extended towards fair territory. At same time, F2 loudly yells "Foul ball!"
BR (who does not see PU indicating fair ball) reacts to F2's verbal call and stays at 1B. F10 then throws the ball back in.
If F2 did not yell, BR may have been able to reach 2B safely.
Should PU award BR 2B?

[CecilOne]

If you are asking whether this is verbal obstruction, maybe, but you can only award 2nd if
- you really judge the BR would have reached it otherwise, and
- whether the yell actually caused the BR to stop, especially as he stayed at 1st, apparently having seen it land fair

[mcrowder]

This is textbook verbal obstruction, but I'm not sure 2nd base is the proper award - HTBT I suppose.

[rodan55]

Have had verbal interference, but no verbal obstruction. Had what would be verbal obstruction at a National, but the protest was overruled. I believe the wording has changed since then. Since it did not result in an out, let the play stand.

[Andy]

Should PU award BR 2B? - Don't know, HTBT to judge.

Can PU award BR 2B? - Yes, if PU believes the yelling by F2 impeded the BR's progress.

[Bluefoot]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

- whether the yell actually caused the BR to stop, especially as he stayed at 1st, apparently having seen it land fair

Yes, F2's yelling caused BR to stop. BR could not see on his own that the ball was fair, as there were no lines on field at all. The only person who could tell it was fair was PU, standing at home plate, who saw the ball land just inside fair territory and he signalled as such.

Is there an ASA rule that allows PU to award BR 2B, since F2 caused BR to stop at 1B, and BR may have gotten to 2B in umpire's judgement, had F2 not yelled "Foul ball!"?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Seems to me that Andy already answered that.

And, what was the first base coach doing? You know, the one person on the field to whom the BR should have been paying attention? BR isn't supposed to be seeing if the ball is fair, or even necessarily knowing that the umpire signalled fair. BR is supposed to do what the first base coach tells him to do.

[HawkeyeCubP]

As ASA Casebook Play 1-79 specifically addresses defensive team members trying to confuse base runners, and specifically states "There is no penalty for a defensive player or coach yelling," I do not have anything but a lackadaisical runner, until someone convinces me otherwise.

Go.

[mcrowder]

Hawkeye, that statement is specifically for that POE, and not for this sitch. You have a fielder here using words typically used by an umpire. If this was legal, you'd have fielders yelling foul and out all the time trying to confuse the offense. Thing is, it's NOT legal. Look at the definition of obstruction, this sitch IS included.

[HawkeyeCubP]

And I searched the other discussions of verbal obstruction on the forum, and found the following from Mr. Rowe a while back:

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

B1 hits a high fly ball down the LF line and takes off. As he rounds 1B, the catcher scream "foul ball" while the umpire is pointing fair. B1 checks up and heads back to the plate as 1B coach is screaming for him to go to 2B.

As an umpire, I'm protecting that runner at least between 1B & 2B. Depending on the situation, I may keep him at 1B or award him 2B. There are probably a few umpires that would move him to 3B as an FYC for the catcher's stupidity. I cannot do that, my brain will not let me.

- and that makes sense as well.

I just needed lots of convincing in my mind, as it still seems to me, in some respect, that the statement I quoted from the Casebook play could/perhaps should be applied to more situations than simply the tag-up play it's being related to, as the ruling doesn't clarify itself by saying anything to the effect of "when runners are tagging up on fly balls" or offering any other clarifier.

It would be nice if this (using words typically used by an umpire) was laid out as either USC or OBS in type somewhere, specifically, for me. (I'm seeing a reoccurring theme with myself and what I want out of the rule/casebook. )

I'll take your word(s) on the subject. Just seems odd to me now. I'll give it time.

Thank you.

[IamMatt]

Here's a question, what purpose would F2 have in yelling out "Foul Ball" other than to affect the BR? Or, to whom would F2 legitmately be yelling "Foul Ball!" in the game sitch presented?

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by IamMatt

Here's a question, what purpose would F2 have in yelling out "Foul Ball" other than to affect the BR? Or, to whom would F2 legitmately be yelling "Foul Ball!" in the game sitch presented?

1. None that wouldn't be deemed unsportsmanlike.

2. Legitimately: no one.

Simply yelling at opposing players is not, in and of itself, against the rules.

Opposing players try to confuse opposing players all the time, especially in adult slow pitch. I think the resulting point of the discussion is that the behavior described is unacceptable because it's immitation of an umpire designed to confuse an opposing player - not simply because it's an act designed to confuse an opposing player.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeCubP

Simply yelling at opposing players is not, in and of itself, against the rules.

Well, yeah it can be.

Opposing players try to confuse opposing players all the time, especially in adult slow pitch. I think the resulting point of the discussion is that the behavior described is unacceptable because it's immitation of an umpire designed to confuse an opposing player - not simply because it's an act designed to confuse an opposing player.

This thread is about a person not permitted making a call which impeded the progress of a runner. It is against the rules. It is obstruction. The umpire's job is to recognize it, call it and render any award appropriate to off-set the violation.

[IamMatt]

That's why I asked my questions. It seemed to me that there could likely be no reason to yell "Foul Ball" like that OTHER than to obstruct the runner, unlike other examples of yelling by the defense (yelling "3!" might confuse the runner if he thinks it is a direction from his coach to continue to 3B, but it is a legitimate way for a defending player to indicate to their fielder to throw to 3B, general "Hey, batter, batter" chatter that may be annoying but is taken in stride and should not affect the actions of the offense, etc.)

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by IamMatt

general "Hey, batter, batter" chatter that may be annoying but is taken in stride and should not affect the actions of the offense, etc.)

Nope, that's not going to happen.