Another Obstruction play...

[wadeintothem]

Well I chewed on this one all the way to work.. and I cant post much here..

Im a little slower than most so I'm also having trouble grasping why the DDB signal was given in this instance...


The OBS was not significant enough to protect the runner to 2nd due to the rounding (not running through 1b, rounding it) .. and the DDB signal confused the OFF so the Ump bit the bullet and gave put the runner back to 1B despite the fact the runner had passed the base protected to (1B).. so..

Why call it? It was an error.

1) If the point was to protect the runner to 1B .. the point was likely moot by the time the arm was raised.. by the time the runner made a wide round due to the OBS there was probably less the 1 second before the runner was on the bag.. and OBS can be called even if DDB is not signalled. There was no play being made on the runner anyway and no reason for DDB or OBS because the runner was safe by miles.

2) If the point was to protect the runner back to 1B after rounding, the DDB call should have been delayed until a play was being made at 1B.. this would have prevented the resulting confusion.

Essentially, I dont see how there was any possibility of OBS here.. based on the scenario provided and the resulting ruling after the out at 2B and no reason for the DDB signal... UNLESS the point was to protect the runner to second, which wasnt the case.

But then again I'm not a very good umpire, but thats how I see it. OBS protecting a BR to 1B is not in plays like was described here.. you'll see it on bunts/slaps and ugly defense or stuff like that..

And as I mentioned, runners rounding 1B properly, round it wide.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Well I chewed on this one all the way to work.. and I cant post much here..

Im a little slower than most so I'm also having trouble grasping why the DDB signal was given in this instance...


The OBS was not significant enough to protect the runner to 2nd due to the rounding (not running through 1b, rounding it) .. and the DDB signal confused the OFF so the Ump bit the bullet and gave put the runner back to 1B despite the fact the runner had passed the base protected to (1B).. so..

Why call it? It was an error.

1) If the point was to protect the runner to 1B .. the point was likely moot by the time the arm was raised.. by the time the runner made a wide round due to the OBS there was probably less the 1 second before the runner was on the bag.. and OBS can be called even if DDB is not signalled. There was no play being made on the runner anyway and no reason for DDB or OBS because the runner was safe by miles.

2) If the point was to protect the runner back to 1B after rounding, the DDB call should have been delayed until a play was being made at 1B.. this would have prevented the resulting confusion.

Essentially, I dont see how there was any possibility of OBS here.. based on the scenario provided and the resulting ruling after the out at 2B and no reason for the DDB signal... UNLESS the point was to protect the runner to second, which wasnt the case.

But then again I'm not a very good umpire, but thats how I see it. OBS protecting a BR to 1B is not in plays like was described here.. you'll see it on bunts/slaps and ugly defense or stuff like that..

And as I mentioned, runners rounding 1B properly, round it wide.

1)The OP implied the BR was impeded by F3, just not clearly whether before/after 1st or both.
2) Why ignore a violation if it happens?
3) What if your crystal ball isn't working and you don't know what he runner will do?
4) What if the runner blew past 1st w/o noticing the OBS call or being told by the coach and would have reached 2nd safely if not delayed by the OBS?
5) How do you deal with an OBS award if needed and not signalled?
6) Isn't "the scenario provided and the resulting ruling after the out at 2B" a reason for a DDB signal?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Please find me a BR who can round 1B at full speed while avoiding a defender standing on the inside corner of the bag and not be obstructed.

It's not possible, PERIOD. C-One has it nailed. The only error here would be the umpire not doing their job as directed via ASA rules and mechanics.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Well I chewed on this one all the way to work.. and I cant post much here..

Im a little slower than most so I'm also having trouble grasping why the DDB signal was given in this instance...


The OBS was not significant enough to protect the runner to 2nd due to the rounding (not running through 1b, rounding it) .. and the DDB signal confused the OFF so the Ump bit the bullet and gave put the runner back to 1B despite the fact the runner had passed the base protected to (1B).. so..

Why call it? It was an error.

A question: I may be reading too much into your response, but are you saying that OBS should only be called when the umpire will award the next base?

As Mike surmised earlier, part of the OBS happened prior to the BR reaching first, and part happened between first and second. In my judgement, I had the runner protected between first and second. I do not believe the BR would have reached second base absent the OBS, but she cannot be put out between first and second. The fact that she stopped and then only attempted to go to second after the third base coach saw my DDB signal and yelled at the runner to go confirmed my initial judgement.

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

Essentially, I dont see how there was any possibility of OBS here..

..And as I mentioned, runners rounding 1B properly, round it wide.

I disagree with you here, Wade. I'm certainly not a coach or have ever coached, but most runners that I have seen want to turn at any base on the inside corner to get a good push to change direction and take the shortest possible path to the next base. A fielder standing on the inside corner of the base without the ball is taking that path away from the runner.

[wadeintothem]

Mike and Cecil,

essentially what I am saying is, if you felt the OBS impeded the runner rounding the base to 2nd, then they should be protected to 2nd.

The OP did not feel they were impeded to 2nd, but rather impeded to first, and in this instance .. yes, it should not have been signalled because it was moot at the time DDB was signalled, resulting in confusion..

Thats what i'm trying to say.

So if the runner was impeded by F3 while rounding the base, with the result that at the out at 2, thats the call..

if not, it should have been signalled..

typing quick, gotta run..

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

...if you felt the OBS impeded the runner rounding the base to 2nd, then they should be protected to 2nd.

Speaking ASA, only if in your judgment the runner would have made 2B without the OBS.

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

...The OP did not feel they were impeded to 2nd, but rather impeded to first, and in this instance .. yes, it should not have been signalled because it was moot at the time DDB was signalled, resulting in confusion..

This is contrary to the training I have received. See the OBS, call it. If nothing else, it puts the teams on notice that OBS will be called if it is observed.

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

...So if the runner was impeded by F3 while rounding the base, with the result that at the out at 2, thats the call..

This cannot be true, since by rule the runner is protected between the bases where the OBS occurred, unless, that is, you are saying the "continuing OBS" theory Mike posts is wrong, that instead you only go with the instant the OBS was first observed (between home and 1B).

I do not agree that the effect of the OBS was moot merely because the runner would not have advanced beyond 1B. One clear effect of OBS is protection of the runner between the bases where the OBS occurred. By your application of the rule, you are choosing to not provide the runner with this protection, and, hence, making the impact of the offense on the offending team even less that it should be.

[wadeintothem]

DDB is not a yellow flag.. its a DDB signal.

It doesnt signal OBS, it signals we have a dead ball pending developments..

The runner in this case already passed the base protected too and rounded 1st.. so there is no DDB, the OBS is not there. If was gone the second the runner passed the base protected to

There thats a succinct way of putting it.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

There are some HTBT aspects to it, and im not questioning this obs call.. but for the sake of discussion

Softball players are taught to take 1B wide when rounding the base.. and in practice set up cones (or balls or mits) at locations to teach this wide rounding. Proper base running at 1B is rounding it wide.

The HTBT part stevie wouldnt see is if the runner was obstructed by F1.. or the runner was just rounding base... (or if their was that cute little orange base in play HOW that could be obs... being on the inside corner.)

A runner rounding a base wide (even with a player using up the inside corner) is not automatically OBS. The judgement part would be if there was OBS because of that.

Proper base running at 1B is getting wide BEFORE the base and hitting the inside corner as you push off toward second.

In the next paragraph, I'm assuming you meant F3, not F1.

If the double base is being used, the BR can still use the white bag on a hit to the oufield, so F3 parked on the inside corner can easily be called for OBS, even with a double base.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Dakota

This is contrary to the training I have received. See the OBS, call it. If nothing else, it puts the teams on notice that OBS will be called if it is observed.

ditto. ditto.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

DDB is not a yellow flag.. its a DDB signal.

It doesnt signal OBS, it signals we have a dead ball pending developments..

The runner in this case already passed the base protected too and rounded 1st.. so there is no DDB, the OBS is not there. If was gone the second the runner passed the base protected to

There thats a succinct way of putting it.

No, it's an incorrect way of putting it.

An obstructed runner is "protected" in 2 ways - they cannot be put out prior to the base that they will be AWARDED, and they cannot be put out between the bases where the obstruction occurred. Yes, 90% of the time this is the same thing - but NOT always, and NOT in the case we're discussing. A runner who is obstructed while rounding first who will not reach 2nd base (Umpire judgement) without the OBS, is going to be AWARDED first base, but is PROTECTED between first and second nonetheless, and if put out between 1st and 2nd, should be AWARDED first base.

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I know that the arm being dropped does NOT mean the protection is dropped, but if the arm is still out, it means protection is still in force.

I thought the arm was just the DDB signal telling everyone that play will be killed as soon as playing action stops. It has nothing to do with the actual obstruction call. A release IP gets the arm as well doesn't it??

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by wadeintothem

DDB is not a yellow flag.. its a DDB signal.

It doesnt signal OBS, it signals we have a dead ball pending developments..

... snip ...

We might "have a dead ball", de"pending" on developments.


What's a yellow flag? Is it optic yellow?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by tcblue13

I thought the arm was just the DDB signal telling everyone that play will be killed as soon as playing action stops. It has nothing to do with the actual obstruction call. A release IP gets the arm as well doesn't it??

What you quoted from me was an overstatement. "... could mean..." instead of "means" is more accurate.

Yes, the arm out is a DDB signal, not an "obstruction" signal, so it is used for multiple DDB infractions.

[tcblue13]

Originally Posted by Dakota

What you quoted from me was an overstatement. "... could mean..." instead of "means" is more accurate.

Yes, the arm out is a DDB signal, not an "obstruction" signal, so it is used for multiple DDB infractions.

I guess my confusion comes at the point that the duration of the arm is also the duration of protection. I have not been clinicized in that manner.

[CecilOne]

There is obviously no standard for how long to hold the arm out, but if the Dead Ball is still possible after the Delay, then DDB is still applicable. Of course, as Mike said, some of us are not athletic enough to run full speed with our arm out, so it boils down to being practical and the need to comunicate in any given situation.