Another Obstruction play...

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I agree, but the reason for my question (about the arm being still out after rounding 1B) was that the arm was now signalling to the coach that the runner was still protected. Hence, the correct call was made (protecting the runner).

I know that the arm being dropped does NOT mean the protection is dropped, but if the arm is still out, it means protection is still in force.

No - the arm has nothing to do with whether protection is on or off. You leave the DDB signal up long enough for everyone (who's looking) has time to see it, and then you drop it. Dropping it has nothing to do with any of your decisions regarding protection. The arm signal merely means that you have a delayed dead ball (it is, after all, the DDB signal, not the OBS signal). It is conceivable that you could have your arm still out on a play briefly after the runner has outrun her protection - so saying "if the arm is still out it means protection is still in force" is just not correct.

Heck - under your logic, if you were protecting to home plate on an apparent ITPHR, you'd have to leave your arm up while the runner slogs around from 1st to home.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by LIIRISHMAN

We are under USSSA rules. Obstruction for U-Trip is automatically next base.That makes me caustious to call obstruction on a play like the orignal post. How can I call it when I know in my head that the B/R wouldn't have made 2nd anyway.

This is exactly why NFHS removed the automatic base award from the OBS rule a few years back. Umpires wouldn't call OBS so the coaches started coaching their players to OBS runners.

[bellnier]

I know it's a HTBT, but I've got a slight brain cramp on this one...unless F3 is blocking the base (which was not suggested in the original post) B1 would have safely reached 1st on a shot to left field. So why is (s)he protected only to 1B? Is it because F3 is positioned between the plate and 1B? Is it because you don't really KNOW if B1 would have attempted to go to 2B? Let's say it's the latter reason...if the ball rolls all the way to the fence and it's safe to assume B1 would attempt 2B, would you protect her to that base? Thanks (from a coach).

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

No - the arm has nothing to do with whether protection is on or off. You leave the DDB signal up long enough for everyone (who's looking) has time to see it, and then you drop it. Dropping it has nothing to do with any of your decisions regarding protection. The arm signal merely means that you have a delayed dead ball (it is, after all, the DDB signal, not the OBS signal). It is conceivable that you could have your arm still out on a play briefly after the runner has outrun her protection - so saying "if the arm is still out it means protection is still in force" is just not correct.

Heck - under your logic, if you were protecting to home plate on an apparent ITPHR, you'd have to leave your arm up while the runner slogs around from 1st to home.

I didn't mean it to be a technicality... but if the arm is still out half way to the next base, what is the umpire telling the players / coaches?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by bellnier

I know it's a HTBT, but I've got a slight brain cramp on this one...unless F3 is blocking the base (which was not suggested in the original post) B1 would have safely reached 1st on a shot to left field. So why is (s)he protected only to 1B? Is it because F3 is positioned between the plate and 1B? Is it because you don't really KNOW if B1 would have attempted to go to 2B? Let's say it's the latter reason...if the ball rolls all the way to the fence and it's safe to assume B1 would attempt 2B, would you protect her to that base? Thanks (from a coach).

Speaking ASA, the judgment the umpire has to make is a parallel-universe question...

Suppose the obstruction had not happened. What base would the runner have achieved?

The answer to that question is the base to which the umpire protects the runner, and is the base the umpire will award the runner at the end of the play (if necessary).

Also, the runner is protected by rule between the two bases where the obstruction occurred. So, in the scenario presented, the runner is also protected between 1B and 2B.

But, if put out between those bases, the awarded base is the answer to the first question (in this case, 1B).

[Steve M]

Andy,
While I understand this approach - "This is exactly why NFHS removed the automatic base award from the OBS rule a few years back. Umpires wouldn't call OBS so the coaches started coaching their players to OBS runners." I don't like it or agree with it. I had the same obstruction in some of my games - after it was known that obstruction was being called, a lot of the obstruction went away. Put a real penaly in for committing this infraction - and that's not just removing the effect of the infraction - call it, enforce it, and the penalty will start to disappear.

The folks who would not enforce that penalty in Fed ball in past years are the same ones who (then & today) don't attend clinics, don't learn & study the rules, and are just there for a quick pay check. They did the game a dis-service - and these are the folks who ought to P-i-ss every umpire off.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by LIIRISHMAN

We are under USSSA rules. Obstruction for U-Trip is automatically next base.That makes me caustious to call obstruction on a play like the orignal post. How can I call it when I know in my head that the B/R wouldn't have made 2nd anyway.

This is why I do not care for the train of thought that you need to penalize the defense.

That's not your concern. You are getting paid to work a game under a particular set of rule. If you are working under a set of punitive rules, you apply the rule as directed.

If you have a problem with the rule, then you probably shouldn't work u-trip.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by bellnier

I know it's a HTBT, but I've got a slight brain cramp on this one...unless F3 is blocking the base (which was not suggested in the original post) B1 would have safely reached 1st on a shot to left field.

That cramp is more than slight. I think "F3 standing on insde corner of first base watching F7 field the ball. BR has to take a wide turn around first to avoid F3" can easily be read by Stevie Wonder as obvious OBS.

So why is (s)he protected only to 1B? Is it because F3 is positioned between the plate and 1B? Is it because you don't really KNOW if B1 would have attempted to go to 2B? Let's say it's the latter reason...if the ball rolls all the way to the fence and it's safe to assume B1 would attempt 2B, would you protect her to that base? Thanks (from a coach).

The umpire should protect the OBS runner to whatever base s/he believed that runner would have reached safely had the OBS not occurred. It is pure umpire judgment. There is no locked-in formula for ruling on OBS.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

That cramp is more than slight. I think "F3 standing on insde corner of first base watching F7 field the ball. BR has to take a wide turn around first to avoid F3" can easily be read by Stevie Wonder as obvious OBS.

Mike,
You might be too hard on him. It really wasn't clear in the OP whether the BU though F3 impeded progress to 1st or just getting around 1st toward 2nd. His question was about whether the BR was awarded 1ts because of being impeded before 1st or becaue the ump judged that the try for 2nd was only because of the OBS call.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I didn't mean it to be a technicality... but if the arm is still out half way to the next base, what is the umpire telling the players / coaches?

That something happened (probably OBS ... but conceivably something else) that caused a delayed dead ball, at some point within the past 2-3 seconds or so. Beyond that ... nothing. The length of time that you leave the arm up should be the same on every play (barring, of course, the necessity to use your left arm for something else during that time, like a safe call), and should have nothing to do with protection being on or off.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

The length of time that you leave the arm up should be the same on every play (barring, of course, the necessity to use your left arm for something else during that time, like a safe call), and should have nothing to do with protection being on or off.

I don't necessarily agree with that. If the runner or BR makes it safely to the base I would have awarded them the OBS would be ignored, correct? At that point I'd drop my arm.

[wadeintothem]

There are some HTBT aspects to it, and im not questioning this obs call.. but for the sake of discussion

Softball players are taught to take 1B wide when rounding the base.. and in practice set up cones (or balls or mits) at locations to teach this wide rounding. Proper base running at 1B is rounding it wide.

The HTBT part stevie wouldnt see is if the runner was obstructed by F1.. or the runner was just rounding base... (or if their was that cute little orange base in play HOW that could be obs... being on the inside corner.)

A runner rounding a base wide (even with a player using up the inside corner) is not automatically OBS. The judgement part would be if there was OBS because of that.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

I don't necessarily agree with that. If the runner or BR makes it safely to the base I would have awarded them the OBS would be ignored, correct? At that point I'd drop my arm.

You are operating under a misconception.

The arm signal merely states that you have witnessed something that caused a delayed dead ball. It should be left up ONLY long enough (2-3 seconds is plenty) so that others have time to see your signal. This is not the "I have the runner currently protected" signal, nor is it the OBS signal. Dropping your arm does not and should not signify ANYTHING, and certainly shouldn't indicated that your protection has ended.

Picture an infield hit where F1 OBS's the runner a step or so prior to first base, but you are only going to award and protect to first base. Do you shoot the arm out and quickly put it back down 2 steps later (perhaps half a second)? That looks ridiculous. Make the signal, and drop it after a couple of seconds.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

You are operating under a misconception.

The arm signal merely states that you have witnessed something that caused a delayed dead ball. It should be left up ONLY long enough (2-3 seconds is plenty) so that others have time to see your signal. This is not the "I have the runner currently protected" signal, nor is it the OBS signal. Dropping your arm does not and should not signify ANYTHING, and certainly shouldn't indicated that your protection has ended.

Picture an infield hit where F1 OBS's the runner a step or so prior to first base, but you are only going to award and protect to first base. Do you shoot the arm out and quickly put it back down 2 steps later (perhaps half a second)? That looks ridiculous. Make the signal, and drop it after a couple of seconds.

I agree with all this mc, all I was saying was if the umpire left the arm up "too long" has he (perhaps not intentionally) communicated something to the players / coaches?

I have never subscribed to the school of thought that the arm stays out for as long as the protection is in force, but there are plenty of umpires to do that. If the arm is left out a "long time" has this "told" the coach something?

When I read the OP, I took the question to be "should the umpire have let the out stand since the obstruction occurred between home and 1B and she was not protected beyond 1B?"

Mike (Irish) addressed that by observing that the OBS was likely an ongoing thing that was still occuring between 1B and 2B, even if it first occurred between home and 1B.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

You are operating under a misconception.

The arm signal merely states that you have witnessed something that caused a delayed dead ball. It should be left up ONLY long enough (2-3 seconds is plenty) so that others have time to see your signal. This is not the "I have the runner currently protected" signal, nor is it the OBS signal. Dropping your arm does not and should not signify ANYTHING, and certainly shouldn't indicated that your protection has ended.

Picture an infield hit where F1 OBS's the runner a step or so prior to first base, but you are only going to award and protect to first base. Do you shoot the arm out and quickly put it back down 2 steps later (perhaps half a second)? That looks ridiculous. Make the signal, and drop it after a couple of seconds.

Speaking ASA

I have no problem with the umpire holding the signal as they choose.

The "old" mechanic was to keep the arm out until the OBS was no longer a factor in the play. As it was explained to me, the mechanic was changed because some umpires looked like they were out there flapping a wing while running around hustling to get into position.

If I have no need to "run" with the play, I'll hold it as long as I feel it is necessary, sometimes to conclusion. If I need to move with the play, I drop it and hustle into position.