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Old Tue May 16, 2006, 09:25am
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Helping a coach ask for help

14U ASA rules; decent teams. 2 umpire crew. I was watching the game.

R1 advancing from 2B to 3B. Throw comes in to F5, who catches the throw and brings her glove down for the tag. R1 clearly slides into the glove and then to the base. Clear out. BU, who (IMO) has lazy mechanics (I never did see him hustle at all; he merely walked - not even that fast - where ever he went to get into "position" for the call) finds himself out of position and cannot possibly see the slide / tag. He calls the runner safe. DC has a clear view of the play from the 1B dugout, comes out to discuss the call. He approaches the PU. (PU, BTW, had a great view of the play.) PU tells the coach it was not his call, but if BU "wants to give it up, he can. Go talk to the BU."

I suspected that as soon as he said that, there is no way the BU would "give up his call." Which he angrily confirmed to the coach.

Comments on how PU handled this? Would it have been inappropriate to, instead, have said something like, "It was BU's call. You can tell him what you saw and request that he ask for help." ?
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Old Tue May 16, 2006, 09:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
You can tell him what you saw and request that he ask for help." ?
I probably wouldn't throw my partner under the bus like that, even if I KNEW he kicked the call. Letting the coach know I have something different, and then the coach approaching a 'defensive' BU, could only lead to other problems.

However, a post-game discussion with my partner would be warranted.
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Old Tue May 16, 2006, 09:43am
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I think that's essentially what he said to begin with. If the BU doesn't know how to ask for help, then its a lost cause anyway. It sounds like the BU wouldnt have changed his call for anyone.

I had one similar to this recently - BU pretty clearly misses a tag play at 2B (calls safe), I saw an out, def coach saw an out and asks me to change the call. I told him that it wasn't my call and there was no dropped ball or other information I could add to the BU's look. BU did not ask for help....on a straight judgement call there was nothing else I could do, except watch the coach chew on the BU for a sec or two. I'm certainly not going to say, "yeah, coach, he blew it, tough cookies for you!"

Later on, this BU blew a pulled foot at 1B, but in that case he asked for help, I told him the foot was pulled, and he reversed his call.
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Old Tue May 16, 2006, 10:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNBlue
I probably wouldn't throw my partner under the bus like that, even if I KNEW he kicked the call. Letting the coach know I have something different, and then the coach approaching a 'defensive' BU, could only lead to other problems.

However, a post-game discussion with my partner would be warranted.
Wasn't telling to coach "if BU 'wants to give it up, he can. Go talk to the BU.' " also telling the coach you had something different, but in a way guaranteed to get an undesirable result?

I generally agree with your point, though. Had it been me at PU, I would have merely said, not my call, go talk to the BU, and left it at that.
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Old Tue May 16, 2006, 10:41am
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I don't see any way the OP's call could have been reversed. No pulled foot, no dropped ball - just two views of the same play. Which "overrules" the other if they differ, even if help is asked for? The one made by the calling official - who, even if lazy, is almost definitely in a better position to make the call.

And I, as BU in this sitch, would never ask for help either (unless coach mentioned something I TRULY didn't see ... like pulled foot, dropped ball, etc or I knew I was straight-lined by something). It's not arrogance - it's simply the fact that BU is inherently closer on this play (even if lazy). (And before you lambaste me for being an egomaniac umpire, I AM one of those who think umpires should ask for help WHEN WARRANTED).

Edit to add - if I'm PU in this sitch, my response is simply - "Coach, that is BU's call, you need to talk to him." Whether I saw something or not, this is exactly the words I use. If coach is bordering on beligerent, I might instead say, "Coach, that is BU's judgement call, you need to talk to him," hoping the reminder that it's a judgement call will cool him down a tad before he gets to BU.
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Old Tue May 16, 2006, 10:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
I don't see any way the OP's call could have been reversed. No pulled foot, no dropped ball - just two views of the same play. Which "overrules" the other if they differ, even if help is asked for? The one made by the calling official - who, even if lazy, is almost definitely in a better position to make the call.
That's the issue. BU didn't have a view of the play.
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Old Tue May 16, 2006, 10:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
...Had it been me at PU, I would have merely said, not my call, go talk to the BU, and left it at that....

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
...if I'm PU in this sitch, my response is simply - "Coach, that is BU's call, you need to talk to him..."
Exactly how I would handle it. If BU then comes to me and asks what I've got, I tell him, then let him make a decision on whether or not to change his call.
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Old Tue May 16, 2006, 11:38am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakota
Had it been me at PU, I would have merely said, not my call, go talk to the BU, and left it at that.
I agree. I have been known to instruct coaches, post-game, how to diplomatically approach umpires. There are some coaches that, like me, need to be trained in some of the finer aspects of our sport, and apparently no one is sharing or available for them. I classify this as preventative umpiring. My intent is to help a the coach as well as fellow officials by sharing what I have learned.
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Old Tue May 16, 2006, 11:42am
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Tell the coach to check with the umpire who made the call. Watch the fireworks. Maybe he'll get his tail in gear next time. Had to tell alot of partners, especially rookies, better to blow a call in position that to be out of position. Most likely, if in position, you won't blow it. A little more hussle goes a long way. Gives you goose bumps when you take the BR into 3B and have a play there. No matter the call, it's that "good hussle blue", coming from the dugout.
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Old Wed May 24, 2006, 02:59pm
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"Gives you goose bumps when you take the BR into 3B and have a play there. No matter the call, it's that "good hussle blue", coming from the dugout."

What about those times like I had last night. 2 outs, bases empty. Ball hit to left field, gets by the outfielder. Runner is trying to leg out a triple. F5 catches the throw and tags a sliding BR right before he reaches the bag. I have been set in position because of my hustle and was just waiting for the play to develop. Big out sell. BR says, "That's a bad call." His teammate says "No, Todd, you were out." Teammate looks at me and says "Blue, that's not your call, you can't call that."
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Old Wed May 24, 2006, 03:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrowder
I don't see any way the OP's call could have been reversed. No pulled foot, no dropped ball - just two views of the same play. Which "overrules" the other if they differ, even if help is asked for? The one made by the calling official - who, even if lazy, is almost definitely in a better position to make the call.

... snip ...
Angle is more important than distance, especially when the distance isn't that much farther.

As Mike said, not in position to see the angle. Most likely wouldn't ask for help because it's admitting bad position.

Why not talk it over with your partner, as a courtesy, if not just for the sake of getting it right. If there is too much ego to realize we all miss calls, go officiate basketball.
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Old Wed May 24, 2006, 03:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAWRebels
"Gives you goose bumps when you take the BR into 3B and have a play there. No matter the call, it's that "good hussle blue", coming from the dugout."

What about those times like I had last night. 2 outs, bases empty. Ball hit to left field, gets by the outfielder. Runner is trying to leg out a triple. F5 catches the throw and tags a sliding BR right before he reaches the bag. I have been set in position because of my hustle and was just waiting for the play to develop. Big out sell. BR says, "That's a bad call." His teammate says "No, Todd, you were out." Teammate looks at me and says "Blue, that's not your call, you can't call that."
Don't you know that most ballplayers teach mechanics at clinics?
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Old Wed May 24, 2006, 03:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAWRebels
"Runner is trying to leg out a triple. F5 catches the throw and tags a sliding BR right before he reaches the bag. I have been set in position because of my hustle and was just waiting for the play to develop. Big out sell. BR says, "That's a bad call." His teammate says "No, Todd, you were out." Teammate looks at me and says "Blue, that's not your call, you can't call that."
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Old Wed May 24, 2006, 04:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAWRebels
"Gives you goose bumps when you take the BR into 3B and have a play there. No matter the call, it's that "good hussle blue", coming from the dugout."
The players and coaches do appreciate the hustle no matter the call. Took a runner into third on ball hit into right-center field gap. Throw comes in just ahead of the runner to the inside part of the bag, runner makes a great slide to the outside of the bag and gets in under the tag. I'm about 7 feet away with a perfect angle and clear view. I give the big SAFE call and I hear the defensive coach from the third base dugout "Boy blue, it's a good thing you're standing right there or we'd be arguing right now." Just smiled and hustled back over to A.
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Last edited by gsf23; Wed May 24, 2006 at 04:25pm.
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Old Wed May 24, 2006, 06:10pm
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This should be part of every pre-game meeting with the coaches.
"Coach if you have a question about a call, request TIME and then go to the umpire who made the call. . ."

Then you can easily remind the coach that in this case, he needs to go to BU.

If I am ever asked to go for help, it will only because the coach used the "magic words", that include, perhaps your view was blocked, would you mind asking your partner if he saw there was a tag, etc.

The only thing I would ever ask my partner would be the specific question that coach asked, but ONLY if coach asked the right question.

I would never go to my partner and ask, "What do you have?". I would also never answer that question if my partner came to me and asked me that question.
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