R1 stays at first ... two scenarios

[bobbrix]

Hi Folks,

Here's a couple fun ones.


a) Runner at 1st. Ground ball, batter-runner runs to first but R1 still standing on first base.

F3 gets throw and tags base and then tags R1, who still stands on 1st base.

I have batter-runner out and F1 safe on first because the force was removed when F3 touched first base.

I think they could tag R1 all they want but she's ok if still standing on the base ... kind of like a fly ball and they're waiting to see if it's caught or not. Agreed???


b) Similar set up as above, but, this time the batter-runner actually runs through first base. So, we have the original girl still standing on first base and the batter-runner has become a runner. She's still the second person there, and I think she would be out if tagged by F3, whether both offensive players are now standing on first base or not.

Almost like R1 ignored the 'force' and sacrificed the batter-runner (maybe on purpose if R1 is a speedster and batter-runner very slow). Agreed?


Hopefully, the wordings above make sense.


Thanks in advance for comments/debate/etc.

[SC Ump]

a) If they touched or tagged the base first, then yes they could tag R1 all they wanted but she would not be out. If R1 was standing on the base and they tagged her prior to touching the base, then R1 would be out. She has been forced off that base and being in contact with it provides her no protection from being put out.

b) If the batter runner has not been put out, R1 is not protected while touching first base.

[greymule]

These plays are not purely theoretical. I've had both versions several times.

[dtref]

So...it matters which one gets tagged first? I always thought the lead runner was out if two were occupying the base at the same time.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by dtref

So...it matters which one gets tagged first? I always thought the lead runner was out if two were occupying the base at the same time.

Depends on the situation. The runner who is in jeopardy of being tagged out is the runner who does not have legal rights to the base.

In a force situation, the runner with legal right to the base is the following runner, so the lead runner would be out if tagged.

In a non-force situation, the lead runner has legal right to the base and the following runner will be out if tagged.

If the force is removed while the 2 runners are standing on the base, the runner that has legal rights to the base changes.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by dtref

So...it matters which one gets tagged first? I always thought the lead runner was out if two were occupying the base at the same time.

I hope you're not saying what I think you're saying. If two runners are on base, neither is AUTOMATICALLY out for any reason. The one that does not have the right to occupy the base can be put out if done so through proper actions by the defense.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by greymule

These plays are not purely theoretical. I've had both versions several times.

I had a version of "a" in a HS Regional game two weeks ago. Bases loaded, no outs. Batter hit a weak flare over the drawn in F3. F4 couldn't quite get there, but R3 thought it would be caught and camped on the base. F4 scooped the ball up on one hop and didn't know what to do. She ended up stepping on the bag, then tagging the runner.

The only tough part was my partner in the B slot (3-man crew) was completely blocked by the two runners and two defenders. Fortunately, I had a clear view. I killed the play and said "Batter-runner is out. When she stepped on the base, the force was removed. One out." The defensive coach saw the play from the 1B dugout, and there was no argument. In fact, he immediately explained to his fielder what she should have done.

[Ed Maeder]

Why did you kill the play? There might have been more outs to get on the play.

[argodad]

Originally Posted by Ed Maeder

Why did you kill the play? There might have been more outs to get on the play.

R1 had scored. R2 advanced to 3rd and stopped on the base. R3 was camped on first with F4 holding the ball against her shoulder. My partner was looking at me with a "I was blocked, what do you have?" look in his eyes. (We've worked together for several years, and I could read his mind ). I guess I didn't really kill the play -- it just sorta died.