Cute situation from another board

[Paul L]

"The runner is out when the runner physically passes a preceding runner before that runner has been put out." NFHS 8-6-4; ASA (2005) 8-7-D.

Why would the out be voided because the ball later became dead as a result of becoming an uncaught foul?

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by Paul L

"The runner is out when the runner physically passes a preceding runner before that runner has been put out." NFHS 8-6-4; ASA (2005) 8-7-D.

Why would the out be voided because the ball later became dead as a result of becoming an uncaught foul?

The penalty for NFHS 8-6-4 states "The ball is in play and the runner is out." Since the ball is foul, it was never technically in play, therefore you can't call the runner out.

[mcrowder]

Nonsense. He's out if he passes when the ball is live. Period. Whether it becomes foul or not after that does not undo the out. He's out.

Not a fun one to sell, for sure ... but this is the right call.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

Since the ball is foul, it was never technically in play, therefore you can't call the runner out.

Could it have been caught for an out? Yes. Could runners advance? Yes. Could runners score? Yes. Could the runners have been put out? Yes.

Sounds like the ball was in play to me.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Could it have been caught for an out? Yes. Could runners advance? Yes. Could runners score? Yes. Could the runners have been put out? Yes.

Sounds like the ball was in play to me.

Agreed, but once the ball is grounded and foul, why would 8-6-4 supercede 8-5-1?

[BretMan]

This play is really making the rounds! I have seen five different variations of this scenario on five different discussion boards in the past week.

An interesting non-softball footnote: This same question came up a few days ago on the webpage run by my local baseball umpire association. They have a "Stump the Ump" board where members can submit questions to our associations rule interpretor.

Our interpretor admitted that he was stumped! The question was forwarded to Kyle McNeely on the NFHS national rules committee for clarification.

The word we got was that on a ball that becomes foul, the passing runner is not out.

Now, from a softball point of view: I would also tend to say that the runner is not out.

I would base this on NFHS rule 8-5-1 and ASA rule 8-6-A, both of which state that runners must return to their base when a batted ball is foul.

Kind of hard to comply with that rule if you've declared the runner out!

Since the ball has been declared foul, no advance of the runners is possible. If no advance is possible, how can we call a runner out for advancing illegally?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Here's the problem with returning the runner. What runner are you going to return? S/he's no longer a runner because, by rule, THEY have already been declared out.

ASA Case Book Plays 8.8-15 & 8.8-17 notes that even though an over-the-fence HR is a dead ball, runners still may not pass each other and the passing runner will be declared out. That settles the live/dead ball discussion.

Now, the question becomes the fair/foul issue. Since no runners may advance on a foul ball of any sort, I believe a passing runner should not be declared out. Therefore, I will offer the following rule change to ASA for the 2007 season:

Runner is out

Add 8.7.D

EXCEPTION: When on a batted ball which is declared foul

Affects POE #39

[greymule]

Foul ball, nobody out, runners return (same as in OBR). Just as you call the batter out on the IFR and then negate the call if the ball becomes foul. Just as you ignore the OBS if BR who has hit a long fly is obstructed while rounding 1B before the ball is caught.

Of course, anything is possible in a code that (1) permits a BR who hits a bases-loaded, no-out pop toward 1B to collide intentionally with F3 to break up a double play, and (2) still allows the run to score if the runner from 3B had touched home before the collision.

So I offer another rule change: "If the BR has not touched 1B at the time of the interference, each runner shall return to the base legally occupied at the time of the pitch."

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Since no runners may advance on a foul ball of any sort, I believe a passing runner should not be declared out.[/b]

Is that the way you would rule this year?