Cute situation from another board

[Dakota]

I've adjusted (added detail) a bit, but I thought this was at least worth discussing from a mechanics perspective.

2 umpire crew.

R1 on 2B. R2 on 1B. B3 hits a high, long fly beyond 1B in foul territory near the fence. F9 running over to try to make the catch. R1 takes a few steps off 2B and waits. R2 runs full speed and passes R1. Batted ball drops for a foul.

OK... describe what BU does about R2 passing R1 during the live ball (before the ball becomes foul). If R2 is called out, what happens next after the ball is foul?

[mcrowder]

Did BU go out or not?

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Did BU go out or not?

I would doubt it (at least I wouldn't have) since the ball is near the 1st base line and BU should be in "C".

R2 is called out during the live ball, since we don't know if ball will be fair/foul. If foul, change the call. No different in my mind than 'infield fly if fair'. If fair, batter is out, if foul, nothing but a foul ball.

If, in OP, ball is fair, runner is still out. If foul, just a foul.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Did BU go out or not?

No (sorry, left that detail out).

[Paul L]

"The runner is out when the runner physically passes a preceding runner before that runner has been put out." NFHS 8-6-4; ASA (2005) 8-7-D.

Why would the out be voided because the ball later became dead as a result of becoming an uncaught foul?

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by Paul L

"The runner is out when the runner physically passes a preceding runner before that runner has been put out." NFHS 8-6-4; ASA (2005) 8-7-D.

Why would the out be voided because the ball later became dead as a result of becoming an uncaught foul?

The penalty for NFHS 8-6-4 states "The ball is in play and the runner is out." Since the ball is foul, it was never technically in play, therefore you can't call the runner out.

[mcrowder]

Nonsense. He's out if he passes when the ball is live. Period. Whether it becomes foul or not after that does not undo the out. He's out.

Not a fun one to sell, for sure ... but this is the right call.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

Since the ball is foul, it was never technically in play, therefore you can't call the runner out.

Could it have been caught for an out? Yes. Could runners advance? Yes. Could runners score? Yes. Could the runners have been put out? Yes.

Sounds like the ball was in play to me.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Could it have been caught for an out? Yes. Could runners advance? Yes. Could runners score? Yes. Could the runners have been put out? Yes.

Sounds like the ball was in play to me.

Agreed, but once the ball is grounded and foul, why would 8-6-4 supercede 8-5-1?

[BretMan]

This play is really making the rounds! I have seen five different variations of this scenario on five different discussion boards in the past week.

An interesting non-softball footnote: This same question came up a few days ago on the webpage run by my local baseball umpire association. They have a "Stump the Ump" board where members can submit questions to our associations rule interpretor.

Our interpretor admitted that he was stumped! The question was forwarded to Kyle McNeely on the NFHS national rules committee for clarification.

The word we got was that on a ball that becomes foul, the passing runner is not out.

Now, from a softball point of view: I would also tend to say that the runner is not out.

I would base this on NFHS rule 8-5-1 and ASA rule 8-6-A, both of which state that runners must return to their base when a batted ball is foul.

Kind of hard to comply with that rule if you've declared the runner out!

Since the ball has been declared foul, no advance of the runners is possible. If no advance is possible, how can we call a runner out for advancing illegally?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Here's the problem with returning the runner. What runner are you going to return? S/he's no longer a runner because, by rule, THEY have already been declared out.

ASA Case Book Plays 8.8-15 & 8.8-17 notes that even though an over-the-fence HR is a dead ball, runners still may not pass each other and the passing runner will be declared out. That settles the live/dead ball discussion.

Now, the question becomes the fair/foul issue. Since no runners may advance on a foul ball of any sort, I believe a passing runner should not be declared out. Therefore, I will offer the following rule change to ASA for the 2007 season:

Runner is out

Add 8.7.D

EXCEPTION: When on a batted ball which is declared foul

Affects POE #39

[greymule]

Foul ball, nobody out, runners return (same as in OBR). Just as you call the batter out on the IFR and then negate the call if the ball becomes foul. Just as you ignore the OBS if BR who has hit a long fly is obstructed while rounding 1B before the ball is caught.

Of course, anything is possible in a code that (1) permits a BR who hits a bases-loaded, no-out pop toward 1B to collide intentionally with F3 to break up a double play, and (2) still allows the run to score if the runner from 3B had touched home before the collision.

So I offer another rule change: "If the BR has not touched 1B at the time of the interference, each runner shall return to the base legally occupied at the time of the pitch."

[Smiley]

Originally Posted by greymule

Foul ball, nobody out, runners return (same as in OBR). Just as you call the batter out on the IFR and then negate the call if the ball becomes foul. Just as you ignore the OBS if BR who has hit a long fly is obstructed while rounding 1B before the ball is caught.

Getting back to the original post, in the case of IFR, the rule is very clear that it only applies if the ball is fair. In the case of OBS, the rule is also clear that you only award the base that would have been reached absent the OBS. The problem is the rule is not clear on passsing a preceding runner when the ball later becomes foul. I agree with Mike's proposed rule change for ASA. A similar change could be made in the NFHS book.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Since no runners may advance on a foul ball of any sort, I believe a passing runner should not be declared out.[/b]

Is that the way you would rule this year?

[greymule]

If a runner passes another runner on a foul ball in one of my games, I'm returning all runners. This year. But since the book isn't 100% clear, I'd support Mike's suggested addition. However, I suspect that ASA's current interpretation would be simply foul ball, runners return. (But who knows for sure?)

Also:

the [OBS] rule is also clear that you only award the base that would have been reached absent the OBS

Abel on 2B, Baker on 1B, 2 out. Charles smashes a one-hopper to F5, who gloves it two steps from 3B. F6 obstucts Abel, 50 feet from 3B, a half second before F5 steps on 3B for the force on Abel.

In ASA, the ball is dead as soon as Abel is put out. Abel is awarded 3B, Baker goes to 2B, and Charles goes to 1B. The fact that absent the OBS, Abel was out by a mile is irrelevant. The OBS overrides the fielding play.

So we could also argue, if we take the book literally, that OBS during a fly ball that is eventually caught also overrides the catch. After all, in Fed, a call of "foul" on a pop fly eventually caught overrides the action on the field. The catch is nullified, and the ball is foul.

I think that if we take the book 100% literally, we could come up will any number of rules that umpires routinely contradict.

Abel on 2B is the winning run in the bottom of the 7th. Baker gets a hit to left field and Abel tries to score ahead of F7's throw. So that he can direct Abel in his approach to the plate, Charles, the on-deck batter, places himself in foul territory 15 feet behind home plate on the direct line from 3B through home. F7's throw is in the dirt, deflects off F2's knee, and hits Charles just before Abel's foot touches the plate.

OK, guys. The book is to be taken 100% literally. That's a blocked ball by the offense. Abel back to 3B.