Stubborn Partner – what can you do?

[WestMichBlue]

You are the PU; as game UIC can you rectify a bad situation when partner refuses to do so?

A fictitious situation: ball hit into the outfield, B-R makes contact with F3 and is knocked off stride, but continues to 2B and is called out by BU on a bang-bang play. B-R bounces up complaining that she was bumped; coach is yelling for obstruction. Coach and BU conference; BU stays with play. Coach comes to you; you tell him you will not discuss the play, to talk with your partner. That infuriates the coach (coaches, players, fans, etc.) more because BU does not want to talk any more.

Now what? You don’t know what is going on. Maybe BU did not see obstruction (bad mechanics); maybe he saw it and didn’t think it significant (bad rules knowledge); maybe he protected the B-R back to 1B and she went beyond (bad interpretation). Maybe he is having a bad day; maybe he doesn’t like the coach.

Whatever – you have a bad situation. As UIC, you want a bad call fixed.

Will you go to partner and attempt to get him to reverse his call?

If you do, and he won’t, would you over-rule him?

Or do you just stay out of it, saying you can’t do anything until BU elects to solicit your input?

WMB

BTW - protests not allowed; all issues settled on the field by the umpiring crew.

[Justme]

Think judgment call…… good or bad it’s the BU’s judgment call. In this situation if I’m the PU and the coach comes to me I won’t talk to him about the play. He needs to convince my partner to ask me for help.

In some associations it is allowable (advisable) for one umpire to go to the other umpire if they are 100% sure they have something that can help get the call right. How you handle this should be addressed in your pre-game meeting with your partner.

You NEVER reverse your partner on a judgment call. If asked (by your partner) you give him the information you have but your partner is still responsible for changing his call, not you.

[Steve M]

PU apparently saw the obstruction on this play and did nothing about it. Why didn't PU call it? This isn't fishing in somebody else's spot. See obstruction - call it. Saves a whole lot of grief and prevents this situation.

What is PU going to over-rule? Judgement, nope, not allowed - even if due to bad mechanics. If I'm PU, I'm not going to my partner to talk about his job, especially since I didn't do mine in this play.

I can't say that I care a whole lot about infuriated coaches, players, and fans - their ignorance is not my problem.

"Or do you just stay out of it, saying you can’t do anything until BU elects to solicit your input?" - yup, but I'm saying something like "that's my partner's call, talk to my partner." I will not tell a coach that I can't or won't do anything - I don't see that as appropriate.

And I think the post-game get together might be interesting.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Agree with Steve. Obstruction may be called by either umpire. I know in WMB's situation he has the PU not making the call.

But how it should have gone is........when the BU made the out call.......the PU should call time and award the base on the obstruction he had.

Joel

[AtlUmpSteve]

The original post asks if PU should over-rule the BU. Not only he should not, there is no rules basis to support that he could. No matter how bad the original call is, you can't violate a different rule in the name of trying to fix the wrong. Whether judgment or poor rule knowledge or interpretation. No umpire has the authority to over-rule the calling umpire.

Interestingly (and perhaps intentionally), the fictitious play is one where both umpires have authority to make the call. But PU did not make the obvious call, so he waived his right to now assert he can make it. If PU did his job, he would have had the DDB signal, and at the end of the play conferenced with BU to determine the award. He just wants to get a bad call fixed? In this case, look in the mirror.

[DaveASA/FED]

Interesting, you all give a DDB as PU when you see OBS that is typically the BU call? I have not heard of that mechanic. Not saying I dont agree with it in this case, and that having the OBS called should happen. Issue I have is if no runners are on, (dont think OP mentioned TOP conditions) then the BU has the B-R to third wouldnt' OBS be there call? Reason I say that is OBS has a lot of judgement in it, true contact is close to a given to get the call but there are a lot of cases where I might view it as OBS from the plate especially if I am just looking back after verifying fair, ball no catch in left field and see somethign that looked like OBS only seeing part of it, but BU saw it and it was a stupid runner move not caused by F3 at all, the play at 2nd comes in and I kill it on what I think was OBS, BU was on top of it and it wasn't now that will make for a nice post game conference.

Not trying to start an arguement, I believe it is about getting it right #1 above all else but seems like this mechanic could hurt sometimes.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Relating to this original post, PU saw "contact with F3 and is knocked off stride". OBS can be called by PU, and if he observes that BU has failed to do it, he should. This one sounds obvious, and the obvious call can't be ignored.

Gray area, I agree; don't start making them from your position. Black and white, call it every time; maybe hesitate, and don't bother if BU does it, but do not let it be uncalled.

[HandCheck7]

What about this situation. Since we seem to agree that we shouldn't overrule on this. Batter is struck by pitch, bu calls dead ball, pu says no way that ball didnt hit him/her. What occurs next?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Sorry, but you are all way off base.


If you see the OBS, and I don't care who was responsible for the runner at that point, you call it. When your partner rules the runner out, you inform your partner of the OBS call and award the runner the appropriate base.

That's it. Really nothing more to be said.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Gee Mike............wasn't that what I said.............d;-) (your $.05 is in the mail)

[Justme]

Originally Posted by HandCheck7

What about this situation. Since we seem to agree that we shouldn't overrule on this. Batter is struck by pitch, bu calls dead ball, pu says no way that ball didnt hit him/her. What occurs next?

Simple, ball is dead! PU & BU get together and figure out which call they'll go with.

[tcblue13]

I have a quick question.
Do you confer with your partner before making the call or do you just call it and let your partner learn about it the same time everyone else does?

[bellnier]

Steve M said:

"PU apparently saw the obstruction on this play and did nothing about it. Why didn't PU call it? This isn't fishing in somebody else's spot. See obstruction - call it. Saves a whole lot of grief and prevents this situation.

What is PU going to over-rule? Judgement, nope, not allowed - even if due to bad mechanics. If I'm PU, I'm not going to my partner to talk about his job, especially since I didn't do mine in this play.

I can't say that I care a whole lot about infuriated coaches, players, and fans - their ignorance is not my problem."

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In this scenario there was an obstructed baserunner and you say the PU didn't do his job in this play. I assume this is the very same obstruction the coaches, players and fans saw. How then, does their unhappy response to a blown call make them "ignorant"?

[WestMichBlue]

Originally Posted by bellnier

Steve M said:

"PU apparently saw the obstruction on this play and did nothing about it. Why didn't PU call it? "?

OK guys, you have twisted this around and made it the PU's fault. Of course, both umps can call obstruction. And interference. BUT THAT IS NOT THE QUESTION

Create your own ficticious situation where your partner has blown a call and rejects the coach's request to reverse it or to get your input. You saw the dropped ball or swipe tag or whatever. Must you stay quiet because of umpire prototcal, or do you have a greater obligation to the game to get the play right?

WMB

[AtlUmpSteve]

I answered that back in post #5. It's more than umpire protocol; it cannot be done according to the rules of softball. By your greater obligation, you cannot violate that rule.