Stubborn Partner – what can you do?

[whiskers_ump]

As ALTUMPSTEVE said, "Suck it up"...Nothing you can do.

[Smiley]

There is no rule against getting together with your partner and discussing what each of you saw. You can't overrule him, but you can let him know what you saw. Then he can make up his own mind.

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by bellnier

Steve M said:

"PU apparently saw the obstruction on this play and did nothing about it. Why didn't PU call it? This isn't fishing in somebody else's spot. See obstruction - call it. Saves a whole lot of grief and prevents this situation.

What is PU going to over-rule? Judgement, nope, not allowed - even if due to bad mechanics. If I'm PU, I'm not going to my partner to talk about his job, especially since I didn't do mine in this play.

I can't say that I care a whole lot about infuriated coaches, players, and fans - their ignorance is not my problem."

----------------------

In this scenario there was an obstructed baserunner and you say the PU didn't do his job in this play. I assume this is the very same obstruction the coaches, players and fans saw. How then, does their unhappy response to a blown call make them "ignorant"?

It makes them VERY ignorant about what I may or may not do BY RULE! B!tch & moan all you want - Since this situation, by rule, may not be addressed by PU, those who want it addressed by PU are ignorant (of the rules of the game).

[MichaelVA2000]

There is no rule against getting together with your partner and discussing what each of you saw. You can't overrule him, but you can let him know what you saw. Then he can make up his own mind.

Smiley,

I agree there is no rule against getting together with your partner and discussing what each of you saw if it the umpire who made the call asking for your input.

With WMB's discription of the play, when the PU saw the the obstruction he should have given the DDB signal even though the BU didn't.

Since neither of them gave an obtruction call, for them to get together after the play and change this particulair call is asking for trouble from the defensive coach who will want to know why the call wasn't made when it was seen.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

If you see the OBS, and I don't care who was responsible for the runner at that point, you call it.

So, if BU is right on the play, sees the runner round first perfectly, sees the "incident" and judges it to definitely be no obstruction other umpire can overrule that BU from perhaps 60 to 80 feet away?

[Smiley]

Originally Posted by MichaelVA2000

There is no rule against getting together with your partner and discussing what each of you saw. You can't overrule him, but you can let him know what you saw. Then he can make up his own mind.

Smiley,

I agree there is no rule against getting together with your partner and discussing what each of you saw if it the umpire who made the call asking for your input.

There is no if to it. There is no rule. It may not be a good idea in most cases, but there is no rule.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

So, if BU is right on the play, sees the runner round first perfectly, sees the "incident" and judges it to definitely be no obstruction other umpire can overrule that BU from perhaps 60 to 80 feet away?

An umpire who sees obstruction and calls it is not overruling anyone.

[SC Ump]

Originally Posted by Dakota

An umpire who sees obstruction and calls it is not overruling anyone.

Sorry I dangled a prepositional phrase, chose an unclear word and perhaps confused some. Let me rephrase:

So, if a BU is right on the play, sees the runner round first perfectly, sees the "incident" and judges it to definitely not be obstruction, the opinion of a PU from perhaps 60 to 80 feet away who happens to think it is obstruction, would trump that "no obstruction" judgment made by the BU in position to judge the situation from a closer perspective?

[Steve M]

I think I'll just quote Tom
"An umpire who sees obstruction and calls it is not overruling anyone."

Am I going to know where my partner is? yup. Am I going to consider that? yup. If I clearly see obstruction, am I going to call it - regardless of where my partner is or anything else? yup.

[Bluefoot]

I had a situation this weekend, NFHS scrimmage, when as BU, I had an OBS call, while my partner did not could not see me with my arm out - his back was to me. We discussed it afterward, and I learned that in that situation, when I know that partner can not see me give the OBS DDB signal, that I should vocalize the OBS call for him to hear. In the case posed for this thread, should the PU have vocalized OBS? Is vocalizing an OBS call written anywhere as a correct procedure for either ASA or NFHS umpires?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Bluefoot

I had a situation this weekend, NFHS scrimmage, when as BU, I had an OBS call, while my partner did not could not see me with my arm out - his back was to me. We discussed it afterward, and I learned that in that situation, when I know that partner can not see me give the OBS DDB signal, that I should vocalize the OBS call for him to hear. In the case posed for this thread, should the PU have vocalized OBS? Is vocalizing an OBS call written anywhere as a correct procedure for either ASA or NFHS umpires?

Pure rubbish. Your partner doesn't need to know you called OBS. Your partner, as you, just need to continue with the play as it unfolds. When the play is done or if the OBS runner is called out by your partner prior to reaching the base to which they are protected, you would then kill the play and apply the appropriate award.

[Smiley]

I think we are getting away from the point of the original post, as stated by the original poster in a subsequent post:

WMB said, "OK guys, you have twisted this around and made it the PU's fault. Of course, both umps can call obstruction. And interference. BUT THAT IS NOT THE QUESTION

Create your own ficticious situation where your partner has blown a call and rejects the coach's request to reverse it or to get your input. You saw the dropped ball or swipe tag or whatever. Must you stay quiet because of umpire prototcal, or do you have a greater obligation to the game to get the play right?"

My point is that although the rules prevent you from overruling your partner's call, there is no rule against sharing information you may have.

[mcrowder]

There is a reason certain calls are the "property" of certain umpires. The OBS and INT discussion aside, if I see my partner make an awful judgement call, there's no way in Hades I'm going to say a word unless he asks me. Why? Because it's his call and he's at least 60 feet closer to it than I was. What may APPEAR to me to be a horrible call is still likely to be the RIGHT call, since he's 10 feet from the call and I'm 60 or 85 feet away. When my judgement from 85 feet becomes so perfect that it's better than some other umpire's from 10 feet, I'll tell my assignor I don't need a 2nd umpire, as I'm flawless.

[AtlUmpSteve]

ASA 10-1.G "No umpire has the authority to set aside or question decisions made by another umpire within the limits of the respective duties as outlined in these rules."

ASA 10-1.H "An umpire may consult the other umpire(s) at any time; however, the final decision will rest with the umpire whose exclusive authority it is to make the decision and who requests the opinion of the other umpire(s)".

ASA Umpire Manual "When one umpire requests an opinion from another concerning a given play, the opinion should be given honestly and courteously to the umpire requesting it. Never offer an opinion, though, unless asked. Unsolicited advice is never appreciated and will cultivate a lack of confidence in the umpire(s)."

NFHS 10-1-4 (in part) "The umpire making the decision may ask another umpire for information before making a final decision."

NFHS Umpire Manual "When one umpire requests an opinion from another concerning a given play which has been ruled upon, the opinion should be given honestly and courteously to the umpire requesting it. and to him/her only. Never offer an opinion, though, unless asked. Unsolicited advice is never appreciated and will cultivate a lack of confidence in the umpire(s)."

NCAA 15-2.h "An umpire should consult his or her associate(s) upon the request of a head coach; however, the final decision will rest with the umpire whose exclusive authority is to make the final decision and who requests the opinion of the other umpires."

NCAA Umpire Manual "The umpire whose call it was must be the one to seek help from a partner. .... Only in the situations listed below, a partner who is 100% certain he/she has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call, should approach unsolicited and alert the umpire to such information. This is an extremely rare circumstance, and the ultimate decision to change a call still rests with the calling umpire.
1) Deciding if a home run is fair or foul.
2) Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or ground-rule double.
3) Cases where a foul tip is caught or trapped by the catcher.
4) Cases where a foul fly ball is caught or not caught.
5) Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because they did not see a dropped or juggled ball after making a tag or force.
6) Spectator interference plays."

There is no rule against sharing information you may have? In the context of this post, there certainly is.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by Smiley

I think we are getting away from the point of the original post, as stated by the original poster in a subsequent post:

WMB said, "OK guys, you have twisted this around and made it the PU's fault. Of course, both umps can call obstruction. And interference. BUT THAT IS NOT THE QUESTION

Create your own ficticious situation where your partner has blown a call and rejects the coach's request to reverse it or to get your input. You saw the dropped ball or swipe tag or whatever. Must you stay quiet because of umpire prototcal, or do you have a greater obligation to the game to get the play right?"

My point is that although the rules prevent you from overruling your partner's call, there is no rule against sharing information you may have.

Umpires are obligated to get the play right BUT there IS an established protocol that should be followed.

The most widely followed protocol is simple. You offer additional information only when asked by your partner. No umpire can over-rule his/her partner.

Another protocol, apparently not used in softball, is for the partner, if they are 100% sure that they have some information that will aid their partner, to approach their partner with this information, even if not asked. The #1 concern of this protocol is to get the call right.

But in either protocol the umpire making the original call is the only umpire that can reverse the call.