Valid Appeal Or Not?

[TexBlue]

I was in one of our rules classes last night and a situation came up in the discussion that brought several responses. For this, assume ASA rules.

R1 is supposed to bat, but has struck out the previous 3 times in the game. R2 comes up to bat (the batter who should have followed R1). She gets on base with a single. Now, the following happens before the next pitch. The Offensive coach sees the Defensive coach coming out, supposedly to make the appeal. The offensive coach calls for time first, gets it and comes out and tells the PU that he made a mistake and wants to put R1 on 1st and let R2 bat. This is done.

Now, the question is, is there anywhere in the rule book that will not allow the defensive coach to make the appeal for BOO anyway? The Rule Book says the Offensive team can make the correction while the batter is still batting. I can't think of any reason not to honor the appeal, call R1 out and continue on. To me, it's just a dumb move to alert the umpires, possible a unethical ploy on the offense's part to get around a poor hitting batter, and we should not penalize the defense just because they were slower to call for time.

[greymule]

Are you kidding? R1 is out. R2 bats again. I'm surprised that this matter got any discussion at all.

"Hey, Blue. That guy who just hit the triple--yeah, Joe Doofus, the guy standing on 3B now. He was the wrong batter. We skipped Goofus. Can Goofus go to 3B instead and Doofus bat again?"

"Sure coach, since you mentioned it before the defensive coach appealed."

[debeau]

Wheres the appeal ?
The offensive team put it right before an appeal

[JEL]

The incorrect batter has completed a turn at bat in this situation.

R1 is out, R2 back to bat, per ASA 7-2-C-2.

Offense has lost the right to correct the situation when the batter has completed his turn at bat.

I'm with greymule, this shouldn't have gotten any discussion at all.

[Dakota]

R1 does not get to take the base earned by R2 who was BOO.

Sorry, coach. You can't do that.

Now, honor the defensive appeal. R1 out. R2 bats again.

The offense may correct BOO without penalty only while the incorrect batter is still at bat. Once the at-bat is completed, it is too late.

[wadeintothem]

I can almost see what probably happened.. it probably turned into a useless noise fest with many talking about anything other than the rule at hand and in the confusion the wrong ruling was grasped onto..

I go to those things so my name is on the sign in sheet so I'm qualified for regionals or whatever homage I'm paying .. but to be honest, rules clinics are IMO virtually useless just for this reason - I do my rule learning in the quiet of my own home on this forum - where you can pull out books, get opinions of many very experienced umpires and get a great look and discussion about a rule quesiton.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by wadeintothem
I can almost see what probably happened.. it probably turned into a useless noise fest with many talking about anything other than the rule at hand and in the confusion the wrong ruling was grasped onto..

Yeah, I've been a party to these kinds of "discussions," too. Everybody talking, hardly anyone thinking, no one listening. Entertaining, but pointless.

Originally posted by wadeintothem
but to be honest, rules clinics are IMO virtually useless

I have great sympathy, respect, and appreciation for the guys who try diligently to put on useful clinics that can actually improve the level of training among the umpires, but my experience (with just a couple of exceptions) mirrors yours.

The exceptions are the all-day or multi-day schools.

The mere clinics are pro forma, but unfortunately, so few would come to a clinic that was long enough to actually be useful that the clinics tend to be hitting the highlights of changes with maybe one or two troublesome rules or mechanics discussed.

[greymule]

The request to put another runner on base and have the batter bat again reminds of something a 3B coach asked me years ago after I called his runner out at 3B:

"Blue! Can't he be safe? He has new shoes."

I can just see it:

"Hey coach, I know I called the opposing runner out, but I'm reversing my call. He's safe."

"Why?"

"He has new shoes."

"Oh, OK. No problem."

I did have a coach come out to the plate with the following:

"Blue, Jenna batted and we skipped over Kristin. Can Kristin bat and then we continue with the batter after Jenna?"

"No, coach."

"But Kristin might not get another chance to bat in this game!"

[Justme]

You didn't start laughing did you? Coaches say & do the strangest things sometimes don't they.

After many, many years of umpiring baseball my HS softball career begins tonight with a varsity scrimmage. I am hoping for much better coaching than you experienced.

But speaking of strange things coaches say and since I am just sitting around bored this morning I want to share a couple of things from a HS baseball scrimmage I worked this week (F/S level). I worked this game (solo) because no one else wanted to and now I see why. Now my assinger owes me big time :-)

Play: R1 stealing 2B.
F2 pops up and throws to F3 (instead of 2B). F3 attempts to throw the ball to F4 but hits R1 in the back. I signal safe. The coach says, "the ball hit the runner", I responded "So?". Coach says "he was running with his arm outside of the running lane". I say "What are you talking about?"

Later, same coach. Runner slides safely into 2B. Without asking for time he steps off the base & starts brushing the dirt off. F4 is standing next to him with the ball in his hand and tags him out. Here comes my now favorite coach saying "The play was over, time was out". I said "Who called time out?" His response was a confused look then "You should have called time." With a smile on my face I said "No coach, your player should have asked me to call time out."

I love this game.....

[debeau]

The devils advocate .
So its ok to appeal BOO after a completed bat but its not ok to put it right .
Where in the rule book does it say the coach cannot and how can you act on an action without a proper appeal .
Do you say "sorry coach you cant replace that person even though you know you did wrong and even though the defense will now appeal and you will have an out "

[wadeintothem]

Originally posted by Justme

Later, same coach. Runner slides safely into 2B. Without asking for time he steps off the base & starts brushing the dirt off. F4 is standing next to him with the ball in his hand and tags him out. Here comes my now favorite coach saying "The play was over, time was out". I said "Who called time out?" His response was a confused look then "You should have called time." With a smile on my face I said "No coach, your player should have asked me to call time out."

I love this game..... [/B]

if its all over but the 2basman hoping to tag the player and the player staring at me from the ground holding the base - I will call time out - even if the player dont ask for it.

Wasnt there so dont know the situation or how long you/player waited - but just saying what I do (whether right or wrong) - done just to keep things moving.

[wadeintothem]

Originally posted by debeau
The devils advocate .
So its ok to appeal BOO after a completed bat but its not ok to put it right .
Where in the rule book does it say the coach cannot and how can you act on an action without a proper appeal .
Do you say "sorry coach you cant replace that person even though you know you did wrong and even though the defense will now appeal and you will have an out "

Speaking NFHS --- BOO is an (DB) appeal play .. and its out when they complete their at bat.. and the rules are clear - 2.1.2c./ 7.1.1

I know its same in ASA I just dont have an ASA book handy to dig up the numbers.

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking - but the rules are what you would tell the coach not whatever you mean by what you wrote.

[mcrowder]

Originally posted by debeau
The devils advocate .
So its ok to appeal BOO after a completed bat but its not ok to put it right .
Where in the rule book does it say the coach cannot and how can you act on an action without a proper appeal .
Do you say "sorry coach you cant replace that person even though you know you did wrong and even though the defense will now appeal and you will have an out "

Exactly. It is ok to appeal BOO after a completed at bat, and it's not OK to "put it right". The offense has already occurred and been completed. There is no "put it right" in this case as far as the offense is concerned.

I would not say it the way you said it. But I would say, "Sorry coach, that can is already opened. Too late to put the genie back in the bottle."

[Dakota]

Originally posted by mcrowder
But I would say, "Sorry coach, that can is already opened. Too late to put the genie back in the bottle."

Or maybe, "Sorry coach, but the barn door is opened. Too late to put the toothpaste back in the tube."

Or maybe, "Sorry coach, but Pandora is out of the box. Too late to unring the bell."

[greymule]

Blue: Sorry coach, but Pandora is out of the box.

Coach: Duh, den why didden ya call 'er out? Plus, I ain't got no Pandora!"