Control (out) or not?

[Rachel]

I agree with Andy. I guess you had to be there.(HTBT)

It is just nice to talk about rules again.

[mcrowder]

Any bang-bang play is HTBT. But if the poster saw what he said he saw, and was able to discern in a second or two that this is indeed what he saw, the call to be made is an out. "Voluntary Release" gets used way too much as a crutch. It is but ONE method used to determine that a ball was in fact in control, but is by no means the ONLY possible way to show control. This term has crawled into coach-speak, and is misused there as badly as "the ground cannot cause a fumble" has in football.

Had a play where F9 made a clean catch, took literally 12-14 steps, was nearing the dirt on her way to the 3B dugout when the ball simply fell out of her glove. Coach went so ballistic quoting "voluntary release" at me that he ejected himself.

Don't fall into the trap.

Was there control at the time of the tag. Period.

[ChampaignBlue]

Let's take it to an extreme to make it easier to visualize. Manute Bol is sliding head first into home covered by Spud Webb. Spud tags him on the lead hand and stands up. Manute's left foot strikes the ball on the way past and dislodges it.

Clearly an out as Spud had control when making the tag.

The same would apply to the original question. The problem we have is that since loss of control occured so quickly in relation to the tag the tag itself is doubted. If she really had control how did she lose it so easily so the judgement of the blue comes into play, did she really have control or not? As originally worded she did but then the blue complicates things because deep down he questions if she did in fact have control.

Never guess an out but if you're sure the ball was dislodged after the tag you got one.

[U of M Sam]

Many great responses and "thoughts".
I have mentally re-played the situation as described and have an "out".
Of course, with this play I would be very certain to "sell" the out call.
Thanks,
Sam

[varefump]

Then how would you call this play...
Throw to retire batter-runner at first base draws the first baseman into the path of the runner. First baseman SECURES the throw and tags the runner just before the collision. Both players tumble to the ground and the ball then falls out of the first baseman's mitt.
First baseman had control of the ball during the tag.
Length of time between the tag and the loss of possession should not be a factor.
In the afore-mentioned play, that was ONE play and the catcher did not complete the play satisfactorily to warrant an out.
I say 'safe' on both situations.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by varefump
Then how would you call this play...
Throw to retire batter-runner at first base draws the first baseman into the path of the runner. First baseman SECURES the throw and tags the runner just before the collision. Both players tumble to the ground and the ball then falls out of the first baseman's mitt.
First baseman had control of the ball during the tag.
Length of time between the tag and the loss of possession should not be a factor.

Sorry, but that is the ONLY factor. I believe ignoring such a thing is a lack of diligence on behalf of the umpire.

In the afore-mentioned play, that was ONE play and the catcher did not complete the play satisfactorily to warrant an out.
I say 'safe' on both situations.

Speaking ASA

Don't know of any rule or interpretation supporting the statement above.

On the collision at first, if the umpire determines that F3 had control of the ball and completed the tag, the call is out. If not, then the call is safe.

[bkbjones]

Originally posted by varefump
Then how would you call this play...
Throw to retire batter-runner at first base draws the first baseman into the path of the runner. First baseman SECURES the throw and tags the runner just before the collision. Both players tumble to the ground and the ball then falls out of the first baseman's mitt.
First baseman had control of the ball during the tag.
Length of time between the tag and the loss of possession should not be a factor.
In the afore-mentioned play, that was ONE play and the catcher did not complete the play satisfactorily to warrant an out.
I say 'safe' on both situations.

So if you had a play like the ARod play in the baseball playoffs a couple years ago, when he knocked the ball out of the defender's glove, you would call that runner safe?

[U of M Sam]

Originally posted by varefump
Then how would you call this play...
Throw to retire batter-runner at first base draws the first baseman into the path of the runner. First baseman SECURES the throw and tags the runner just before the collision. Both players tumble to the ground and the ball then falls out of the first baseman's mitt.
First baseman had control of the ball during the tag.
Length of time between the tag and the loss of possession should not be a factor.
In the afore-mentioned play, that was ONE play and the catcher did not complete the play satisfactorily to warrant an out.
I say 'safe' on both situations.

"First baseman had control of the ball during the tag"
With this description I call "OUT".
You go on to state that "Both players tumble to the ground and the ball then falls out of the first baseman's mitt".
Please explain how you consider this a "safe" call.
Thank you,
Sam

[booker227]

Secured position by the fielder at the time of the tag results in an out, regardless of what happens after the intial tag.

[mcrowder]

VA, you're way off on this one. I think you're letting yourself be swayed by announcer-speak on this one. Nothing you imply is even remotely supported by the rulebook. There is ONE question that the umpire must answer on a play like this:

Did the fielder have possession of the ball during the tag?

That's it. If yes, then everything that happened afterward is moot.

[baldgriff]

The USSSA rulebook defines a tag the following way:

TAG is the action of a Fielder touching a Base with any part of his body while holding
the ball firmly and securely in his hand or glove. Also, Tag refers to touching the
Runner with the ball, or with the glove holding the ball, while continuously holding
the ball firmly and securely during and immediately following the tag.


I have to admit - as a USSSA umpire I was having difficulty calling that play safe as the fielder didnt hold the ball firmly and securely during and immediately following the tag. In my mind there is control of the ball that needs to be maintained after the tag occurs. I can sell the safe call on this one much easier than the out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by baldgriff
The USSSA rulebook defines a tag the following way:

TAG is the action of a Fielder touching a Base with any part of his body while holding
the ball firmly and securely in his hand or glove. Also, Tag refers to touching the
Runner with the ball, or with the glove holding the ball, while continuously holding
the ball firmly and securely during and immediately following the tag.


I have to admit - as a USSSA umpire I was having difficulty calling that play safe as the fielder didnt hold the ball firmly and securely during and immediately following the tag. In my mind there is control of the ball that needs to be maintained after the tag occurs. I can sell the safe call on this one much easier than the out.

Now we can discuss the definition of "immediately"

[CecilOne]

Originally posted by CecilOne
I basically agree with Rachel, but if control by F2 was obvious and not a question until and including the tag on the first leg AND if the ball being knocked loose by the second leg was separate from the tag, it could be an out.

REVISION:

If control by F2 was seen for the tag on the first leg AND if the ball being knocked loose by the second leg was separate from the tag, it was an out.

[Al]

I'm new to Umpiring, with only one year umpiring for USSSA coach pitch 8 & under. I expect to learn a lot from experienced umpires and want to thank all those that take the time to help give better understand to the rules and mechanics of umpiring. I just found this open forum board and have already found it to be a good one.

As I understand the situation brought up by Dave I see a ball that was not held securely enough by the fielder to complete the play, and a ball that was not knocked out of the fielders glove intentionally. In this play where both those things were true...

You can put it on the board....Safe!

[Justme]

Originally posted by DaveASA/FED
Here is the play: R1 rounds 3rd heading home, F2 receives ball and tags R1 prior to reaching plate. BUT, as she is completing the tag on the up swing (swipe tag) the mitt hits the runners knee and the ball falls out as she is bringing the mitt up. To better describe the situation, F2 was pulled to behind LH batters box to get throw, she is coming up to make tag and swings from her R to L contacting R1's outstretched foot up her leg and then as she is coming up with it R1's other shin/knee contacts the mitt and the ball comes out.

So now the question: Do we have an out? How do you determine how long she has to have control of the ball before calling the out?

I see it as control has to be maintained until completion of the play. Meaning in this case until she brings the mitt up to complete the tag, and / or tries to make another move with it. A fellow blue thought the contact with the lead foot and leg gave her the out, and the following knee / shin contact that knocked the ball loose didn't matter. What say you all?

So let me see if I understand this:

F2, with the ball already secured in her glove, tags R1 at home BUT due to continuing action R1's knee knocks the ball from F2's glove?

I've got an OUT!