Drop Third, Turn and Meet Mr Coach

[Bandit]

16 & Under, A, State Tournament. Winners Bracket. Saturday night. Runner on Third. Nobody out. Right Handed Batter. 2 & 2 Count to the batter. High Outside pitch. Batter Checks swing. Drops bat and jogs to first. Catcher does not handle the pitch and has to pick up the ball off the ground. Batter has not sprinted to first and the ball has not gotten that far from the catcher to give the runner at third any chance to even think about coming home. I check my clicker and see that I now have only a full count. While I had just indicated verbally the count was 2 & 2 ( I try to always give the count whenever the next pitch can create a play situation like a strike out or walk) I believe the runner thought she had just received ball 4. I call time and motion for the runner to come back to the plate and that she only has a full count. The batter grins and says sorry blue had to try. As the batter gets reset the pitcher asks for me to appeal to my partner about the checked swing. Now I normally if not always allow this as getting the coaches in a tizzy about not appealing isn't normally worth it. And besides my partner is behind the third baseperson and has absolutly no angle on this call. SOoooooo, I step out and ask. DAMN. He rings up the batter for the third strike. After picking up my jaw from around in front of the plate and quickly deciding that to hurt my partner in front of 3 dozen fans would not be a good idea I start towards the third base coaches box to meet the coach. I have pulled the batter-runner OFF of first on what has now amounted to a drop third strike and declared her out on an appeal. Hind sight has taught me now to be more selective in my willingness to go for an appeal to the backside of the batters. Luckly for me this coach is a decent guy and I have a good history with him during HS ball. So when he asked me for the explination I simply said that I had a dead ball appeal and the batter would remain out. He didn't like it but he was also winning and didn't jump and scream to loud. My long winded question...did I do right or should I have put the runner back on first as to having put her in jeopardy and for have given the defense a unfair advantage ??? Would LOVE to have rule references if possible please.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Bandit
16 & Under, A, State Tournament. Winners Bracket. Saturday night. Runner on Third. Nobody out. Right Handed Batter. 2 & 2 Count to the batter. High Outside pitch. Batter Checks swing. Drops bat and jogs to first. Catcher does not handle the pitch and has to pick up the ball off the ground. Batter has not sprinted to first and the ball has not gotten that far from the catcher to give the runner at third any chance to even think about coming home. I check my clicker and see that I now have only a full count. While I had just indicated verbally the count was 2 & 2 ( I try to always give the count whenever the next pitch can create a play situation like a strike out or walk) I believe the runner thought she had just received ball 4. I call time and motion for the runner to come back to the plate and that she only has a full count. The batter grins and says sorry blue had to try. As the batter gets reset the pitcher asks for me to appeal to my partner about the checked swing. Now I normally if not always allow this as getting the coaches in a tizzy about not appealing isn't normally worth it. And besides my partner is behind the third baseperson and has absolutly no angle on this call. SOoooooo, I step out and ask. DAMN. He rings up the batter for the third strike. After picking up my jaw from around in front of the plate and quickly deciding that to hurt my partner in front of 3 dozen fans would not be a good idea I start towards the third base coaches box to meet the coach. I have pulled the batter-runner OFF of first on what has now amounted to a drop third strike and declared her out on an appeal. Hind sight has taught me now to be more selective in my willingness to go for an appeal to the backside of the batters. Luckly for me this coach is a decent guy and I have a good history with him during HS ball. So when he asked me for the explination I simply said that I had a dead ball appeal and the batter would remain out. He didn't like it but he was also winning and didn't jump and scream to loud. My long winded question...did I do right or should I have put the runner back on first as to having put her in jeopardy and for have given the defense a unfair advantage ??? Would LOVE to have rule references if possible please.

I bet you would Then again, I would like you to start paragraphing your posts!

I don't believe I would have gone to my partner for a couple of reasons. One, they were in no position to be able to see a swing any more than you were. Secondly, there was plenty of time for them to ask you to get help. Once you killed the play, you did just that, killed the play.

The batter didn't deserve 1B and you made a point to state that she didn't sprint there, so I assume she never reached the bag. Even the batter admitted she was intentionally advancing when she knew it wasn't deserved.

The defense asked for the appeal at a point where the batter no longer had the option to attempt to react to the alleged "strike" call.

No appeal, put the batter in the box with a 3-2 count and play ball.

[Bandit]

Ok I agree 100% I could have handled this much, much better but.....

Since I did grant the appeal did I put the runner in "jeoperdy" and could I have placed her back at first by using rule 10 sec 6 letter C ???

I'll work on those compund sentences and paragraphs :-)

[Steve M]

Bandit,
No, once you went to your partner on the appeal, that's the call you live with.

[FUBLUE]

Bandit,

How can you screw up such as easy call! It's simple...don't ask your partner.

think of all the kids you hurt by this call...I hope you can live with yourself

Good thing we do HS ball and Indoor right?

[Elaine "Lady Blue"]

I would have refused the appeal. You're asking for trouble going to the BU who cannot see the checked swing in "C" position.

[CecilOne]

Besides, the case says "Batter Checks swing".

CecilOne
Umpire NFHS(not retired)
Umpire NCAA(not retired)
Umpire ASA(not retired)
Umpire PONY(not retired)

[kellerumps]

Bandit,

1st you have "Umpire Interference" now this. Can't you get even the simplest of plays right? I'm glad you are going to Bloomington for the National

As for your partner, I must confess that this doesn't surprise me at all this year. I've seen alot of crazy things from our umpire brothers and to be honest I'm somewhat concerned right now.

Now on ward, I don't think you should have allowed the appeal. You killed the play, the only thing I think you should have is 3-2 count runner on third.

Later

[Bandit]

FUBLUE / kellerumps...my friends...thanks for turning on me so fast....first of all kellerumps it was "umpire obstruction" not interference. :-) And second of all with who FUBLUE will have in IL leading his National....your absolutly right...I'm glad I'm in Bloomington too...and I'm thinking most of you wish you were too. My question to Steve please....Granted I went to my partner on the appeal but I pulled the runner off of first to do so. And I'm concerned with the wording of the Rule 10. "The plate umpire may rectify any situation in which the reversal of an umpire's decision or a delayed call by an umpire places a batter-runner, a runner or the defensive team in jeopardy". By pulling the runner off of first I placed the batter-runner in jeopardy of the appeal ("delayed call by an umpire")and gave an advantage to the defensive team? This is one of those 1 in 1000 calls but it does bring up a lot of scenio's doesn't it?

[FUBLUE]

Okay, now that you've cited "The Rule" I can see where you could possibly argue the call as putting the runner in Jeopardy. But this leads me to ask, "why appeal if you know you could put the runner in jeopardy?" Further, knowing the talent we had this weekend why ask for help from certain individuals? Some truly do prescribe to the late LD's theory of get an out at any cost.

[Bandit]

The LIGHT just came ON ! I think ?......By reading this rule and typing this and speaking to another umpire here at my place of work I would like to present this idea..... I agree and will not go to another for help in this situation unless I personally know my partner from or by a great deal of past expeience with that partner (good looks count to...as in Ms kellerumps case, I'll go with the expierence thing with Mr. kellerumps and FUBLUE)...but since in this situation I did and my partner created a "delayed call" and "placed the batter-runner in jeopardy" as the rule reads I could have and should have "rectified the situation" by "reversing". His call. Now granted I probally would have still peeved off one of the coaches BUT at least I would have a rule to step back on for the basis of my call. Batter returns to bat with a 3-2 count ! What do you think ?

[Steve M]

Bandit,
OK, I'm sure you won't forget this mess in the future.

Now, while rectifying the "problem" may be the nice thing to do, I don't think you can survive rectifying it. Sometimes, ya just gotta live with it.

[Elaine "Lady Blue"]

BTW, I didn't turn on you, just gave my opinion. I have 17 years under the belt and didn't just pull the answer out of my ASA cap!
I'm with you Kellerumps, I've seen some strange calls by fellow blues and have seen them for several years. The training director or UIC needs to take these folks aside like mine did when I F'd up and give them a dressing down.
We all blow calls even when we know better, but if you don't know better, you deserve to get fussed at.

[WestMichBlue]

" I have 17 years under the belt and didn't just pull the answer out of my ASA cap!"

Not sure then where you did get your answer from, but I don't agree. Yes, you do not appeal to your partner, but not because he/she is in "C." You don't do because you will put a batter is jepordy on a dropped third strike that is called a ball by the plate ump.

I had this same thing happen to me this spring; 2 strikes on batter and pitcher throws a change that barely makes the plate and heads for the basement. Batter starts to swing, pulls back, and ball bounces off plate past catcher. I studied it for a long time, until I was positive in my mind that she did not swing, and announced a very loud and emphatic "BALL!" I was selling it, and didn't want any questions.

Didn't work; coach asked for appeal. I ignored her. That didn't work either because she asked for time, and directly asked me to appeal. At that point I should have said: "No, Coach, I made the call and I am going to stay with it. Your catcher missed the ball, and had I called a strike the batter would be standing on 1B right now. At this point I am not going to allow the call to be changed to a strike and have the batter put on the bench. That would not be fair to her. Call stands."

OK, that is what I will say now, and in the future, when it happens again. But that day, I pointed to my partner and watched in dismay as he raised the hammer. I was so P.O'd that I wanted to run down the baseline and strangle him, but it was my mistake. I should have never given him the chance to screw me up.

WMB




[Edited by WestMichBlue on Jul 20th, 2004 at 01:08 AM]

[Bandit]

Elaine "Lady Blue" makes the following statement: "BTW, I didn't turn on you, just gave my opinion. I have 17 years under the belt and didn't just pull the answer out of my ASA cap!" Who or what is BTW ? I think you took something out of context from one of my posts ??? I know FUBLUE and kellerupms personally and was giving those particular two a good ribbing. :-)