Get the calls right? Responsibility?

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by Roger Greene
I've been staying out of this so Mike wouldn't acuse me of injecting my "baseball mentality" into the discussion but I'd like to add this thought that I shared with my oldest daughter on our way to call a game yesterday.

Her statemant begain "If I thiink the runner left early..."

My response was "If you think they left early, that's good baserunning. If you KNOW they left early - Make the call."
______________________________________________

Good advice, Roger.
_______________________________________________

My point being, If you are going to enforce an obscure rule in a big situation be sure you have a clear cut violation. Don't make an unexpected call without clear and convincing evidence that the violation has occured!

Roger Greene

[zebracz]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown


I intend to stick with the "call what I see" answer and work determinedly to get the best view. It did bite me this last week; got turned back for a district championship game because a childish rookie coach didn't want me to do his game. Okay, I didn't want to argue with him anyway. This was a result of other events and not the ones I initially posed. He's still a putz.

I have noticed that those umpires who always make the expected calls are generally lazy umpires. They don't work to get the best angle and laugh about most of their controversial calls.

Was working two man (with me as PU in their district) with an official from another district last week. With lone runner on 3rd he would stand outside 3rd baseline! He also spent a lot of time standing by the fence talking to the crowd/fans. On this particular play with lone runner at 3rd. Batter gets an infield hit to F6. I see the play developing at 1st but also recognize that R3 may be headed home. I turn to see R3 and here comes partner from the 3rd baselne fence running to a position about 10 feet towards home from 3rd and about 5 feet into foul territory. He nonchalantly smiles and holds a sloppy out call for a very close play at 1st. Never said a word.

That's my partner - for the day only!

I was ready to make every call just in case he didn't show up. Ooh, he's the commissioner's son. And his dad set this low flying level of officiating techniques. The game wasn't close but it was a challenge to rely upon my "partner" for anything. This guy would surely make the expected calls and never have a clue that the expected call could very well be the wrong call. 28 years old, unemployed and working the games daddy assigns him. Aaaaahhhh the undirected youth of America. Can you still call 28 a youth? Well he still acts like one.

Hope I don't get the pleasure of working any state games with him.

Hey DT, you sound a little bitter... ...great points though, and I enjoyed this thread...let me know if it's just me, but not many of the issues on this thread really were addressed; maybe there are too many, i donno. But it's not that they weren't addressed, but no resolutions or corrective measures or ideas, etc.

For instance, the one poster says they were struggling to understand the "making or not making of the 'expected' call." Well, maybe it has not been made clear what exactly this is, see what I mean? Cuz this aforementioned issue is a good one, I think. So, anyways, that's my two-bits (I've got more, if needed, though).

[Dakota]

Originally posted by Roger Greene
My point being, If you are going to enforce an obscure rule in a big situation be sure you have a clear cut violation. Don't make an unexpected call without clear and convincing evidence that the violation has occured!

Roger Greene

I agree with that. I'd go so far as to say you can take the "in a big situation" out of it - it should be a general practice.

Or, putting it more crudely, don't go lookin' fer boogers!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Roger Greene
I've been staying out of this so Mike wouldn't acuse me of injecting my "baseball mentality" into the discussion but I'd like to add this thought that I shared with my oldest daughter on our way to call a game yesterday.

Her statemant begain "If I thiink the runner left early..."

My response was "If you think they left early, that's good baserunning. If you KNOW they left early - Make the call."

My point being, If you are going to enforce an obscure rule in a big situation be sure you have a clear cut violation. Don't make an unexpected call without clear and convincing evidence that the violation has occured!

Roger Greene

Roger,

I wouldn't do that unless you actually tried to impose that mentality on us

I totally agree with you assessment that if you have to "think" about it, you probably shouldn't call it. This goes hand-in-hand with not "guessing" an out.

However, I don't think leaving a base early is an obscure rule. If it is, it's probably because umpires are not calling even when they do see it.

This call has been called late in the NCAA Championships two of the past three years in conjunction with the LBR. I've even had it twice in the past year in SP games.

[Roger Greene]

Yes, Mike. Maybe obscure wasn't the word I should have used. "Technical violation" might be closer, but still doesn't convey excatly what I'm talking about.

Roger Greene

[UpTownBG]

Should an official really be worrying about a State game when deciding what call to make during a season/district game? Does that official have his/her frame of mind in the right place for the purity of the game? These games are not about the umpire! You need to worry about calling what you see every play no matter what game it is, let the kids decide what happens by the plays they make. ANY TEAM, Any team can beat any other team on any given day so quit worrying about who is the "dominating" team and do your job completely unbiased like we're supposed to.

In regards to your district game with you as the PU, P U pretty much covers it but you failed to mention a few things. Did you disagree with your partner's nonchalant-sloppy out call at 1st or was it the right call? While your partner was talking to the fans/crowd did he not cover your a** on a dropped 3rd strike that you for some reason did not see? Did you stop to think that maybe you couldn't see it because you stand straight up behind the plate instead of getting down so you can see the zone? Heck, maybe no ones ever told you that your zone could improve and setting your eyes at the top of a batter's zone will help you greatly. Then again, perhaps you didn't learn from one of the best commissioner's around. You ought to try getting to know people before making your biased judgements.

Good Luck on improving as an official, you definately need it.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Hey, I may be wrong, but I thought the first letter in the word "JOB" was "J".

[whatgameyouwatchinblue]

uptown must have never worked with ol smitty
he's one lucky s.o.b.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Welcome to the board UpTown. And what an entrance you've made. Bold and brassy if nothing else... yeah that about covers it - nothing else.

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by UpTownBG
Should an official really be worrying about a State game when deciding what call to make during a season/district game? Does that official have his/her frame of mind in the right place for the purity of the game? These games are not about the umpire! You need to worry about calling what you see every play no matter what game it is, let the kids decide what happens by the plays they make. ANY TEAM, Any team can beat any other team on any given day so quit worrying about who is the "dominating" team and do your job completely unbiased like we're supposed to.

In regards to your district game with you as the PU, P U pretty much covers it but you failed to mention a few things. Did you disagree with your partner's nonchalant-sloppy out call at 1st or was it the right call? While your partner was talking to the fans/crowd did he not cover your a** on a dropped 3rd strike that you for some reason did not see? Did you stop to think that maybe you couldn't see it because you stand straight up behind the plate instead of getting down so you can see the zone? Heck, maybe no ones ever told you that your zone could improve and setting your eyes at the top of a batter's zone will help you greatly. Then again, perhaps you didn't learn from one of the best commissioner's around. You ought to try getting to know people before making your biased judgements.

Good Luck on improving as an official, you definately need it.

Okay, I think I owe somebody a response here.

UpTownBG, You brought up several issues that weren't discussed in this thread. I guess there is a possibility that people could put 2 and 2 together and figure what games I was working who my partner was etc. If I offended you I'm sorry; it was not my intention.

In response to your post: I wasn't fretting State assignments during my games. That was part of the question should an official try to make the coaches/fans/players happy by making the expected calls and possibly receive state assignments or should an umpire work diligently to be in position, get the best view of a play, and make the call the way he saw it despite it being an unexpected call/result of what all the other people were anticipating and thereby, possibly not receive state assignments?

My comments about expecting one team to dominate were simple game preparation (what an umpire should expect when he works a game) but it didn't influence my performance during the games (I have discussed situations from 3 separate games in this thread). It was simply used in the note as a way of differentiating one team from the other.

The example of a non-chalant, sloppy call was used as an example of improper, lazy mechanics. Official are not meant to be leaning against the side fences and talking with fans during play. Standing outside the 3rd baseline to make a call at 1st is plainly wrong according to any mechanics I have ever seen or read about. I would also say it is extremely lazy and is not a good position for making a call at 1st. I, as the PU, was closer to the play at 1st. And my reason for reciting this situation was that it has been my experience, that it is umpires with similar mechanics to this play discussed above, that make expected/anticipated calls. Which brings us back to the original question, should an umpire work diligently to get position and make calls that are not expected (that would seem wrong according to everyone's expectations) or should an umpire show, what I would consider, little concern for hustle and positioning and simply make the same calls that all the coaches/fans/players are anticipating to be made? Thus getting good evaluations and possibly state tournament games.

'Was it the right call at 1st base' is not really the issue at all. I think it was, but then that call was not my responsibility and I wasn't in position to make it ... but then as I've noted I don't feel my partner was in a proper position to make the call either.

My stance: a subject not discussed in this thread but brought up by you. Yes, I have started using what I understand as the Gerry Davis stance. I stand nearly straight up and well behind the catcher. It offers a great view of the strike zone, the pitcher, the batter and very minimal opportunity for interference of the that view by either the catcher or the batter. It works very well and I feel it is an improvement in my officiating over my previous 23 years of scrunching down behind the catcher. You might want to try it or at least read up on it before condemning it.

Dropped third strike: another subject I don't believe I discussed in this thread. Although, I did discuss it in another thread. Why anyone would feel this call is solely the plate umpires responsibility and that one umpire saved the others butt is beyond me. But okay. I didn't see the drop - and it was a drop, not a bounce. The ball went directly into the catcher's mitt a foot above the ground and apparently fell out as the runner took off for 1st and as the catcher rose to make her throw. My partner ensured we got the call right - he did a great job. Additionally, there were sustained 40 MPH winds from my partner's back and directly into my face off a dirt infield; it's possible I blinked. 40 MPH is not an exageration; I had sand between my toes after this game - through the opening of my plate shoes and two pairs of socks. It was an extremely ugly day. Inside my shoes was not the only place I had sand/dirt.

As for commissioners: My experience is not vast but probably more than many here - I've worked with 8 different commissioners for baseball and softball. I've learned from all of them - including the commissioner mentioned in this thread. My comments, although I don't feel they were incorrect, were inappropriate. Commissioners are not always the best official in the association nor are they necessarily the best instructor of officiating mechanics.

Again, if I offended you personally, as it appears I did, I appologize profusely. I know I said a couple things that were outside of the topic and probably not appropriate for an open public audience. I will be more careful in the future. I'm sorry to all of you readers - I slighted fellow officials. And that is a no-no. I appologize, to them and to you.

[WinterWillie]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown

Okay, I think I owe somebody a response here.

.

DTTB You are wasting your breath. UpTownBG is probably the pseudonym for BBallCoach (a mole)who most likely has been barred from the forum by the moderators.

[TexBlue]

Originally posted by WinterWillie
[B
DTTB You are wasting your breath. UpTownBG is probably the pseudonym for BBallCoach (a mole)who most likely has been barred from the forum by the moderators. [/B]

Yep, the tone and the rhetoric sounds familiar, doesn't it?
Didn't know BBallCoach got barred, though. Shame, I was kinda getting used to the words scrolling' down the screen.

[Skahtboi]

Originally posted by TexBlue

Yep, the tone and the rhetoric sounds familiar, doesn't it?
Didn't know BBallCoach got barred, though. Shame, I was kinda getting used to the words scrolling' down the screen. [/B]

I don't know if I agree with you two on the identity of this UpTownBG poster or not. He seemed to have a few details about the game from DTTB's post that one couldn't have had they not been there.