Get the calls right? Responsibility?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by FUBLUE


Anyway, PU calls conference with umpires, they decide it was interference, PU calls coaches together, tells them it was interference, runner is out, third out, no runs score.

Defense very happy.

Offense very unhappy. In the end, two coaches were ejected (one for place-kicking the ball over the fence, the other for thumping PU in chest with rule book), and umpires had to have an escort from diamond to the changing room.30 to 45 minutes after game ended (team on offense in scenario lost) the team members and parents are still walking around the park looking for the umpires that "cost us a national championship." Three umpires for the game were taken away from the diamond in a vehicle.

Did'ya ever notice that anytime there is a question about the call, the umpire cost the team the game and in this case, an unproven national championship!

Forget the fact that this coach's team couldn't score more runs than their opponent or keep their opponent from scoring more runs than they couldn't score. Forget the fact that is was THEIR runner who wasn't smart enough or COACHED well enough to avoid the interference. Forget that if the umpire had made the correct call originally, the result would have been the same.

I can tell you as a fact even without having been there that these coaches do not have hemmoroids. How do I know that? Because they acted like PLAIN ***holes.

Yes, the umpire made a mistake, but that does not take away from the FACT that the runner interfered with F6 and that means a dead ball and all runners must return to the base at the time of the interference.

And then there is the coach hitting the umpire with the rule book. GOODBYE! And, yes, if there is a policeman nearby, I'll be more than willing to sign the complaint. If not, ASA will get a letter requesting punitive action against said coach. And you know what? That letter may even reach the newspaper local to where his team is based.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by TexBlue
Well, I'm assuming that the F1 had the ball in the circle. I'm still a little confused by all the "givens." Ya know us country boys can't hold onto too many thoughts all at oncet.

But, yeah, I make the call, if the pitcher was in the circle, it's really a no brainer. LBR, she's out, bring on the coaches. Let them vent a little, then have the AD walk you to your car, if necessary.

I agree with Rick, too many "givens" for us farm boys, but
If pitcher in circle, with ball making no play on runner,
she commits one way, turns back, "out" at that point. Don't
even see a need for either coach appearing, surely a coach
unders the LBR.

[TexBlue]

Just to veer off the given subject a little, I had the easiest LBR call today, ever. Runners on 1st and 3rd. The ball gets by the catcher and the runner on 1st goes to 2nd. Catcher throws the ball back to the pitcher in the circle. As PU, I'm just waiting for the runner to get to 2nd, so I can call time and clean off the plate. I see her slowing down to a walk, stops and goes back to 1st 1 step from 2nd!!!!!! I'm just looking at my partner who is very experienced, waiting for him to call it. He sees her, looks at the pitcher, sees no indication of a play being made, looks at me, I shrug and shake my head no, he hesitates and finally calls her out on the LBR. I was cracking up, at the plate. I asked him what the hesitation was for and he told me he couldn't believe she got all the way to 2nd and went back to 1st. Teenagers!!!


Oh, yeah , the coach went crazy on my partner for about 2 1/2 seconds, then went crazy on the runner for about a 1/2 inning. My partner is a liitle less tolerant than I am. He is known in our group as the grumpy ole fart. He's one of the best we have in rules and mechanics, he just has a demeanor that says, "Don't mess with me"

I'll never see a easier LBR!

[mick]

Originally posted by TexBlue
Just to veer off the given subject a little, I had the easiest LBR call today, ever. Runners on 1st and 3rd. The ball gets by the catcher and the runner on 1st goes to 2nd. Catcher throws the ball back to the pitcher in the circle. As PU, I'm just waiting for the runner to get to 2nd, so I can call time and clean off the plate. I see her slowing down to a walk, stops and goes back to 1st 1 step from 2nd!!!!!! I'm just looking at my partner who is very experienced, waiting for him to call it. He sees her, looks at the pitcher, sees no indication of a play being made, looks at me, I shrug and shake my head no, he hesitates and finally calls her out on the LBR. I was cracking up, at the plate. I asked him what the hesitation was for and he told me he couldn't believe she got all the way to 2nd and went back to 1st. Teenagers!!!

F4 quietly said, "Foul....".

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
"So F1 holds on to ball."

And:

"the PU killed the play and called the B-R out for violation of the LBR!"


There is no trickery here, no HTBT; just a clear rules violation that one umpire saw - and called.

The question for you is:

Given that this is a very obscure rule that no one will know about nor understand,

Given the game situation, and that this call ends the game with the home team having the tying run on 3B,

Given that you are in for one hell of an explanation to a set of very irate coaches and players,

Given that the coaches are not going to believe you and assume that you made a very dumb mistake,

Given that protests are not allowed,

Given that you have to find a way off the field through a hostile crowd,

Given that you are guaranteed a very bad rating,

Then:

Would you have made that call?

WMB

WMB,

That's what I call an Oh Sh*t call, when I've called what I've seen and then realize the game situation and say to myself...Oh Sh*t!

I had the plate during a championship game a few years ago
with the the home team down by a run, bases loaded and two outs. The batter takes a full swing at the pitch and hits a sqibbler a few feet in front of the plate, F2 scrambles out on her leg guards and as she is trying to field the ball her mitt comes off, F2 sees F1 charging in and reaches out and with the glove loose on the ground slides it into the ball which now rolls to F1 who picks it up and fires to first base.

I've got my arm in the delayed dead ball position and announce loose eauipment violation. U1 bangs the BR out at first base. When all the dust settles, I announce that I have a delayed dead ball, loose equipemnet violation on the catcher, three base award to the batter and after all the bases are touched.....that's the ball game folks.

The visiting coach as well as their fans went nuts. Coach is yelling about how I decided the game and yadda yadda yadda, I told the coach that his catcher decided the game when she pushed the ball with her mitt detached to her pitcher.

The coach dogged us all the way to the parking lot before the AD could get him away from us.

Michael



WMB

[Little Jimmy]

I know were veering off the original thread here but why would the play TexBlue described be a violation of the lookback rule? If I understood, runner was moving toward 2nd (all be it slow), stops once, and then makes her decision to return to first. This is the same "stops one foot away from the base" situation I've seen discussed here before and there were a sizeable number who felt that no LBR violation had taken place. This seems like a decoy play gone wrong.

[TexBlue]

Originally posted by mick
[B

F4 quietly said, "Foul....". [/B]

Well, in that case, what a great play on F4. Because my partner never heard it or he'da straightened that out real quick. I'll ask the coach tomorrow. I've got him again.

[TexBlue]

Originally posted by mick

F4 quietly said, "Foul....".

In that case, what a great play on F4's part. My partner never heard it, or he'da taken care of that immediately. I'll ask the coach tomorrow, as I have him again in rec ball tomorrow night.

[WestMichBlue]

Little Jimmy - good point. Looks like TexBlue and his partner blew that one.

MichaelVA2000 - Good story that stays on the theme of this thread. My question is: Will you ever, or do you want to - train your self to not make that technically correct, but "O'Sh't" call that is going to give you nothing but grief. In your case, the "expected" call was to shut up and let the play at 1B determine the outcome of the game. Everybody was watching that play at 1B, and you could have had a leisurely stroll to the parking lot, and problably received a good rating.

WMB

[Dakota]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
DAKOTA -

"First, I'd like to think my personal integrity would outweigh any consideration of umpire ratings / post season assignments. If I ever find myself making calls in order to brown nose the coach, I'll know it is time to hang up my mask."

Admirable statment; holding the high ground of idealism as I expected you would.

I can't tell if that is a subtle slam or what... but anyway, my point was the following...

While I would like to think my personal integrity would not allow post season assignments to influence my calls, in the real world, I will probably never know one way or the other, because during the game, I'm in "the umpire's zone" - meaning all I see during the play is the runner and the fielder, the batter and the pitcher, the offense and the defense. I lose track of which team is which, or what the game situation is. I see the play and make the call.

In your lookback violation on overrunnig first base, I'd make that call, sure.

Given that you disagree with this rule, would YOU make that call?

[DownTownTonyBrown]

I posed this same question on the baseball side of things. It didn't generate much discussion. Whatgameyouwatchinblue pretty well shut it off and closed 'er down with his reference to Carl Childress's Worst Calls article.

I intend to stick with the "call what I see" answer and work determinedly to get the best view. It did bite me this last week; got turned back for a district championship game because a childish rookie coach didn't want me to do his game. Okay, I didn't want to argue with him anyway. This was a result of other events and not the ones I initially posed. He's still a putz.

As someone mentioned earlier there is no balance, and I'm not sure there should be, but that coaches can evaluate and choose their desired umpires while us umps just suck-it-up and always try to do our best, surely is not fair. Don't know what is better.

I have noticed that those umpires who always make the expected calls are generally lazy umpires. They don't work to get the best angle and laugh about most of their controversial calls.

Was working two man (with me as PU in their district) with an official from another district last week. With lone runner on 3rd he would stand outside 3rd baseline! He also spent a lot of time standing by the fence talking to the crowd/fans. On this particular play with lone runner at 3rd. Batter gets an infield hit to F6. I see the play developing at 1st but also recognize that R3 may be headed home. I turn to see R3 and here comes partner from the 3rd baselne fence running to a position about 10 feet towards home from 3rd and about 5 feet into foul territory. He nonchalantly smiles and holds a sloppy out call for a very close play at 1st. Never said a word.

That's my partner - for the day only!

I was ready to make every call just in case he didn't show up. Ooh, he's the commissioner's son. And his dad set this low flying level of officiating techniques. The game wasn't close but it was a challenge to rely upon my "partner" for anything. This guy would surely make the expected calls and never have a clue that the expected call could very well be the wrong call. 28 years old, unemployed and working the games daddy assigns him. Aaaaahhhh the undirected youth of America. Can you still call 28 a youth? Well he still acts like one.

Hope I don't get the pleasure of working any state games with him.

[MichaelVA2000]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
Little Jimmy - good point. Looks like TexBlue and his partner blew that one.

MichaelVA2000 - Good story that stays on the theme of this thread. My question is: Will you ever, or do you want to - train your self to not make that technically correct, but "O'Sh't" call that is going to give you nothing but grief. In your case, the "expected" call was to shut up and let the play at 1B determine the outcome of the game. Everybody was watching that play at 1B, and you could have had a leisurely stroll to the parking lot, and problably received a good rating.

WMB

WMB,

Good question, hopefully I will be able to continue calling plays as I see them and not get into a mode of taking the road of less grief. I don't pick and choose the rules to enforce, I see a violation... I act on it.

Michael

[WestMichBlue]

DAKOTA

"can't tell if that is a subtle slam or what..."


My expectations that you would take the high ground is definitely a subtle form of a complement.

"In your lookback violation on overrunnig first base, I'd make that call, sure. Given that you disagree with this rule, would YOU make that call?"


Can't tell if that is a subtle slam or what... Of course I would, for the same reason that you now will make that interference call on a walked B-R outside the 3' lane in a HS game.

My problem is that, being in the "umpire's zone," I would make that call automatically, without seeing or realizing the ramifications of the call. I am struggling with the concept of making the "expected" call, and wondering if I want to, or if I can train myself to make the expected call.

WMB

[Dakota]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
Can't tell if that is a subtle slam or what...

No, not a slam at all. Just remembering an earlier thread where you editorialized fairly strongly that there was no reason to make such a complicated special case out of the BR overrunning, turning this way or that, and the LBR. I thought, given that, it was interesting that this was one of the plays you chose to drive the discussion.

[Roger Greene]

I've been staying out of this so Mike wouldn't acuse me of injecting my "baseball mentality" into the discussion but I'd like to add this thought that I shared with my oldest daughter on our way to call a game yesterday.

Her statemant begain "If I thiink the runner left early..."

My response was "If you think they left early, that's good baserunning. If you KNOW they left early - Make the call."

My point being, If you are going to enforce an obscure rule in a big situation be sure you have a clear cut violation. Don't make an unexpected call without clear and convincing evidence that the violation has occured!

Roger Greene