Get the calls right? Responsibility?

[Dakota]

Originally posted by whatgameyouwatchinblue
collision like that and your partner looks at you for help? if i was you i would be afraid for you partner for looking for help.

As I read WMB's description, his partner was shielded from seeing the possible tag by F3's body (tag would have been in front, BU was behind). To ask for help was proper, although perhaps had I been the BU I would have been more obvious about the fact that I was asking my partner.

F3 did not tag the runner, even though everybody except WMB thought she did.

Is it a tag if the fielder has the ball in the glove and "tags" the runner with her shoulder? Of course not.

[whatgameyouwatchinblue]

alright in softball you can make calls like you seem em. been doing baseball for nine years and softball for only two. I have found in softball most, not all coaches are not very hard on umpires. where as in baseball and you have a collision, not a little bump but a collision and you call a runner safe i would expect a coach out in an instant. yes i do realize this is the softball forum but just as in baseball i would call the runner out everytime.
and i would not look for my partners help.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by whatgameyouwatchinblue
allright ill be the one to go against the grain on this thread. collision like that and your partner looks at you for help? if i was you i would be afraid for you partner for looking for help. my advice for you is to go to the main page officiating.com and read Carl Childress article the worst call i ever saw. its a great article.

Excuse me, but this is a softball board. Carl does not believe in the game. He has openingly stated that softball umpires do nothing, but chase a bunch of little girls who don't know what they are doing around the field.

What ever you want to do in baseball, that's fine by me, but softball is a different game with different priorities.

[Dukat]

Originally posted by Dakota
What we really have here is a flaw in the system that uses coaches to rate the performance of umpires. I realize it is cost prohibitive to have umpire evaluators at every varsity game, but the coach's ratings need to have some kind of counterbalance.

I think it would be a good idea to have partners evaluate each other in addition to the coaches evals. That would help counterbalance the mad coach syndrome.

[hukonrt]

I love this thread. Yes, possibly the most difficult call is the slide with the high tag. But if you can just get one eye to look at the plate and the other to look at the tag it should be very easy. But don't do it for long 'cause your eyes could "stick" like that.

Once in Little League I got roped into umpiring my youngest son's game because the umpire did not show up (imagine that!). My son at bat, full count, watches a good pitch come through on the inside corner. Oh yeah, tough spot...but the umpire made the right call...instantly...and with gusto (good mechanics). It was a couple of days before he (the son) got over being mad. Many years later (age 22) we spoke of the incident and he still couldn't believe I called him out. We both get a smile at the memory, and he agrees it was the right call and appreciates it. Best lesson on integrity I could have given him.

[FUBLUE]

Originally posted by hukonrt
I love this thread. Yes, possibly the most difficult call is the slide with the high tag. But if you can just get one eye to look at the plate and the other to look at the tag it should be very easy. But don't do it for long 'cause your eyes could "stick" like that.

Once in Little League I got roped into umpiring my youngest son's game because the umpire did not show up (imagine that!). My son at bat, full count, watches a good pitch come through on the inside corner. Oh yeah, tough spot...but the umpire made the right call...instantly...and with gusto (good mechanics). It was a couple of days before he (the son) got over being mad. Many years later (age 22) we spoke of the incident and he still couldn't believe I called him out. We both get a smile at the memory, and he agrees it was the right call and appreciates it. Best lesson on integrity I could have given him.

Had something like this with my little brother...he's four years younger, so I was out of "Majors" before he was in "Minors". I used to umpire most games, because no one else wanted to do it. Toughest call I had was bang-banger at first, would be last out of game, brothers team would win. I called him safe (happened to be a friend of my brothers)...both coaches said it was a good call...little brother disagreed...Didn't talk to me for a week (I should have made several more calls like that )

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by FUBLUE


Had something like this with my little brother...he's four years younger, so I was out of "Majors" before he was in "Minors". I used to umpire most games, because no one else wanted to do it. Toughest call I had was bang-banger at first, would be last out of game, brothers team would win. I called him safe (happened to be a friend of my brothers)...both coaches said it was a good call...little brother disagreed...Didn't talk to me for a week (I should have made several more calls like that )

We've all probably had something like this in our careers whether it be son, daughter, brother, sister, best friend, etc.

My first ejection was my brother. Didn't believe I called him out on strikes. Being my brother, I guess he thought he was exempt for any form of umpire discipline.

He hit the right words and I tossed him. He went whining to our father who just laughed and told my brother not to argue with the umpire.

I'd like to hear about someone who got a parent. Now, that would be interesting.

[WestMichBlue]

DAKOTA -

"First, I'd like to think my personal integrity would outweigh any consideration of umpire ratings / post season assignments. If I ever find myself making calls in order to brown nose the coach, I'll know it is time to hang up my mask."

Admirable statment; holding the high ground of idealism as I expected you would.

But then you become a little pragmatic when you recognize the real world we exist in.

"What we really have here is a flaw in the system that uses coaches to rate the performance of umpires. . . . . .but the coach's ratings need to have some kind of counterbalance."

We both know the "Outie" umpires; anything that can be sold is going to be an out. Bunter hold bat in strike zone and get a strike call. Point out that pitch was out of strike zone and you'll be told it doesn't matter; he knows for sure that she must have attempted because, by golly, I've got a strike. I think these same umpires know how to make the crowd pleasing call; the safe call. They don’t make technical calls; no crow hops, no obstruction or leaving early when the game is on the line. They don't make enemies; they get good ratings; and yes they get tournament slots.

Here is a tough one – will you make this call?

Bottom of 7th, tying run on 3B, LH batter executes running slap hit that F1 snags. F1 wants to make a play on R1, but she dives back into 3B. Looks towards 1B, but speedy B-R is going to beat it out. So F1 holds on to ball.

Meantime B-R blew past 1B, turned right and was coming back to the base when she realized that Coach wanted her to continue to 2B and draw a throw. So she heads towards 2B in a slow jog.

Now the entire park is set up to enjoy the drama. Will the defensive team execute the right plays to get the runner out and not give up the run? Will the home team tie it up and send the game into extra innings? We will never know because the PU killed the play and called the B-R out for violation of the LBR! Game over, home team loses, and you are looking for the first opening in the fence to get through to the sanctuary of your car.

This is possibly the most obscure rule in the book. Probably nobody on the field or in the dugouts knows it; even your partner doesn’t. But you know it. Are you going to call it? Pragmatism? Or Idealism?

WMB


[Edited by WestMichBlue on May 15th, 2004 at 12:49 AM]

[FUBLUE]

Originally posted by WestMichBlue
DAKOTA -

"First, I'd like to think my personal integrity would outweigh any consideration of umpire ratings / post season assignments. If I ever find myself making calls in order to brown nose the coach, I'll know it is time to hang up my mask."

Admirable statment; holding the high ground of idealism as I expected you would.

But then you become a little pragmatic when you recognize the real world we exist in.

"What we really have here is a flaw in the system that uses coaches to rate the performance of umpires. . . . . .but the coach's ratings need to have some kind of counterbalance."

We both know the "Outie" umpires; anything that can be sold is going to be an out. Bunter hold bat in strike zone and get a strike call. Point out that pitch was out of strike zone and you'll be told it doesn't matter; he knows for sure that she must have attempted because, by golly, I've got a strike. I think these same umpires know how to make the crowd pleasing call; the safe call. They don’t make technical calls; no crow hops, no obstruction or leaving early when the game is on the line. They don't make enemies; they get good ratings; and yes they get tournament slots.

Here is a tough one – will you make this call?

Bottom of 7th, tying run on 3B, LH batter executes running slap hit that F1 snags. F1 wants to make a play on R1, but she dives back into 3B. Looks towards 1B, but speedy B-R is going to beat it out. So F1 holds on to ball.

Meantime B-R blew past 1B, turned right and was coming back to the base when she realized that Coach wanted her to continue to 2B and draw a throw. So she heads towards 2B in a slow jog.

Now the entire park is set up to enjoy the drama. Will the defensive team execute the right plays to get the runner out and not give up the run? Will the home team tie it up and send the game into extra innings? We will never know because the PU killed the play and called the B-R out for violation of the LBR! Game over, home team loses, and you are looking for the first opening in the fence to get through to the sanctuary of your car.

This is possibly the most obscure rule in the book. Probably nobody on the field or in the dugouts knows it; even your partner doesn’t. But you know it. Are you going to call it? Pragmatism? Or Idealism?

WMB


[Edited by WestMichBlue on May 15th, 2004 at 12:49 AM]

Humor me here...where is the ball when the runner turns around?

[WestMichBlue]

"So F1 holds on to ball."

And:

"the PU killed the play and called the B-R out for violation of the LBR!"


There is no trickery here, no HTBT; just a clear rules violation that one umpire saw - and called.

The question for you is:

Given that this is a very obscure rule that no one will know about nor understand,

Given the game situation, and that this call ends the game with the home team having the tying run on 3B,

Given that you are in for one hell of an explanation to a set of very irate coaches and players,

Given that the coaches are not going to believe you and assume that you made a very dumb mistake,

Given that protests are not allowed,

Given that you have to find a way off the field through a hostile crowd,

Given that you are guaranteed a very bad rating,

Then:

Would you have made that call?

WMB




WMB

[TexBlue]

Well, I'm assuming that the F1 had the ball in the circle. I'm still a little confused by all the "givens." Ya know us country boys can't hold onto too many thoughts all at oncet.

But, yeah, I make the call, if the pitcher was in the circle, it's really a no brainer. LBR, she's out, bring on the coaches. Let them vent a little, then have the AD walk you to your car, if necessary.

[FUBLUE]

With the ball in the circle (F1 of course), and you know in your mind that the runner was committing back to first, you have to call it. If you don't, you've just done the defensive team wrong. Yeah, you take heat from it, but if it is the right call, it's the right call.

Let me throw one at you all...saw it at a 12U national 4 years ago.
Three umpire system.
Bases loaded, 2 outs. Hard grounder between shortstop and second base. R2 collides with F6 moving left to get ball. 3BU holds out left arm signaling obstruction. Three runs score as ball rolls all the way to fence. After play, 3BU is still holding arm out. PU calls for conference. All umpires meet. PU asks 3BU what they saw; 3BU says I have interference on R2 for colliding with fielder. Now;

1. Everyone saw her signal obstruction

2. 1BU didn't see what was happening

3. PU knows that if he calls interference on R2, he pulls three runs (and the lead) off of the board.

Winning team advances to Sunday games.

What do you call as PU?

[TexBlue]

Let me throw one at you all...saw it at a 12U national 4 years ago.
Three umpire system.
Bases loaded, 2 outs. Hard grounder between shortstop and second base. R2 collides with F6 moving left to get ball. 3BU holds out left arm signaling obstruction. Three runs score as ball rolls all the way to fence. After play, 3BU is still holding arm out. PU calls for conference. All umpires meet. PU asks 3BU what they saw; 3BU says I have interference on R2 for colliding with fielder. Now;

1. Everyone saw her signal obstruction

2. 1BU didn't see what was happening

3. PU knows that if he calls interference on R2, he pulls three runs (and the lead) off of the board.

Winning team advances to Sunday games.

What do you call as PU? [/B]

OK, this was 12-U Nationals, close to the end of it apparently. How can an umpire at that level not know interference is a dead ball, not a delayed dead ball? Something is missing from the mix, here. As a PU, they could have called interference also. But, after letting the play continue, I'm not sure the PU can go back and say "Oh, by the way, that's a dead ball, she's out" without a lot of flak. The raised arm indicating OBS is not an issue to me. We all have a brain fart sometimes. But, you gotta recognize the mistake sooner or later and rectify it. At this point, I believe the PU has to tell the 3rd BU about the mechanics of interference. Then she needs to make the announcement of interference and the out. Then, the fun begins. And the 3rd BU is gonna have to let them have some fun, for awhile. A short while. Under ASA Rule 10-Section 6-C, a PU is allowed to correct a call, if, as in this case, it puts the defense in jeopardy. But, after conferring with the 3rd BU, there is no way those runs are allowed to score, since they agree interference happened.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by TexBlue


OK, this was 12-U Nationals, close to the end of it apparently. How can an umpire at that level not know interference is a dead ball, not a delayed dead ball?

You know, you are correct, but sometimes people just make mistakes. It is probably a given this umpire hasn't seen another national, but you never know. Maybe the right people didn't see it happen, maybe the teams actually understood the mistake, but you never know.

Maybe this umpire is a good umpire and just had a brain fart. OTOH, maybe she was assigned as a reward or favor for one reason or another (which should not happen).

I'll guarantee you one thing, she never kicks that call again at any level.

[FUBLUE]

I agree with both of you;

--maybe it was a brainfart
--maybe it was the first national for this umpire
--maybe 3BU should have reversed her own call
--maybe 1BU said it WAS obstruction during the conference
--maybe it was a lot of things

Anyway, PU calls conference with umpires, they decide it was interference, PU calls coaches together, tells them it was interference, runner is out, third out, no runs score.

Defense very happy.

Offense very unhappy. In the end, two coaches were ejected (one for place-kicking the ball over the fence, the other for thumping PU in chest with rule book), and umpires had to have an escort from diamond to the changing room.30 to 45 minutes after game ended (team on offense in scenario lost) the team members and parents are still walking around the park looking for the umpires that "cost us a national championship." Three umpires for the game were taken away from the diamond in a vehicle.