Time to run and hide?

[TexBlue]

I saw this on another board (Troll Central ) and thought I'd bring it over here to see how you guys would handle. it. It's a pretty ugly situation and absolutely a no win for the PU. He messed up, bad.

Anyway, here's what was on the message board.

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Last night I received a call from a coach of a team we service in our association. He played a district game at another school serviced by a different association. His team lost 1-0. Anyway he asked me about a play that happened in the 5th inning. He had runners on 1st and 2nd, 2 outs 3-2 count on batter, everyone is running on the pitch. The pitch ball is thrown in the dirt, the batter swings and misses, but takes off running to 1st base, the umpire says strike 3, batter out now the catcher rolls the ball back to the pitching circle, meanwhile the runners are still running, the umpire stops play. Of course the coach comes out and asked the umpire about the ball in the dirt and the umpire said he was sorry but by him saying the batter was out, it effectively killed the play ....anyway the coach was not happy but the play stood. Any comments.
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Now, I'm thinking I can use rule 10.2.3.m and place the girl on 1st. It ain't gonna be good, but it's the best you can get on something like this, I think.


What do ya'll think?

[mick]

Originally posted by TexBlue
I'm thinking I can use rule 10.2.3.m and place the girl on 1st. It ain't gonna be good, but it's the best you can get on something like this, I think.


What do ya'll think?

You mean 10-2-3(m).

TexBlue
By awarding the runner you do a disservice to the defense.
By awarding the runner you are saying the catcher would not have completed the throw to first.
mick

[TexBlue]

Originally posted by Mick

By awarding the runner you do a disservice to the defense.
By awarding the runner you are saying the catcher would not have completed the throw to first.





Yep, you're right. But, you're gonna do disservice to one team or the other. I just think you gotta try to find the best solution possible, with the understanding that anything you do is gonna upset someone. I took this position on the other board, so I'll present it here too.

Rule 10-2-3-m says, " The plate duties include Art 1 and also the following............

m. rectify any situation in which an umpire's decision that was reversed has placed either team in jeopardy."

Now, let me defend my stand here. If I blew the call and called her out on what was obviously a dropped 3rd strike, that is protestable. ( Rule interpretation.) So, the runner is not out. You have put her in jeopardy by declaring her out. She, in most cases, will be heading to 1st until she hears me declare her out. The catcher knew the ball hit the dirt. How many times over the years, have you had a catcher come up ready to throw to 1st just in case you think she dropped the ball? She knows it's not an out and should be going to 1st anyway. The 1st baseman should have seen the ball hit the dirt. The defense had the advantage of seeing the ball hit the dirt, which the batter did not. Granted the offensive coaches did also. But, again, the batter usually quits running when she hears "... batter is out!" Thus you have put the batter-runner in jeopardy.

I'm gonna get my tail ripped pretty hard anyway, and I deserve it. So, I'm gonna put the batter on 1st and move all others up one base and play at least one more batter.

Now, to reiterate, this was not me doing this. I just think I'd have to handle it this way if I ever do a boneheaded play like this. I don't think there is a good solution to this play. I just think this is the lesser of 2 evils. If you stick by the batter being out, there is absolutely no way they can recover the possiblity of winning the game. If you put her on base, at least the defense has the chance of getting the out still. And the PU still needs to take the heat from one or both of the coaches. I just don't think you can end a game this way in good concience.

[mick]

Originally posted by TexBlue

Rule 10-2-3-m says, " The plate duties include Art 1 and also the following............

m. rectify any situation in which an umpire's decision that was reversed has placed either team in jeopardy."

TexBlue,
For this situation, instead of the wistful 10-2-3(m), I prefer to use 2-38-1 : "An out is a declaration by the umpire indicating an offensive player has been retired. Each team is entitled to three outs per inning. (Sitch said two outs, batter out.)

If we use 10-2-3(m) for undoing a declared "out", where the defense quit, should we then use the same thought for undoing a "foul call" after the defense quits playing? In that case would we simply put the better on third, or all the way home? There are no cases in 10.2 to support the use of 10-2-3(m) for the purpose you politely suggest.

Tried to fool me dintcha?
mick

[TexBlue]

Okay, how 'bout this? If I mistakenly call a runner going to 2nd out, and they stand off the base, just looking at me, do I call them out, when tagged off the base? I put that runner in jeopardy, just like "Strike 3! Batter's out! Oops, my bad, I'm wrong, but she's still out." I just don't feel you can take away the last chance to win by a boneheaded call like this. Take the heat, but try to get it right. You can't get it totally right, but you can put the 2 teams back on as even a playing field as possible.

Have you noticed that no one else is even venturing an opinion on this?

[mick]

Originally posted by TexBlue
Okay, how 'bout this? If I mistakenly call a runner going to 2nd out, and they stand off the base, just looking at me, do I call them out, when tagged off the base? I put that runner in jeopardy, just like "Strike 3! Batter's out! Oops, my bad, I'm wrong, but she's still out." I just don't feel you can take away the last chance to win by a boneheaded call like this. Take the heat, but try to get it right. You can't get it totally right, but you can put the 2 teams back on as even a playing field as possible.

Have you noticed that no one else is even venturing an opinion on this?

TexBlue,
Yer fishin' with the wrong lure.

[Batter standing off base because he was "mistakenly" called out? ]

Now, we agree, this ain't gonna happen to you, or me, or any of us that are reading this thing, right?

Of all the uncaught third strikes we've seen, is it possible the batter could beat that throw (ball in catcher's hand, if played out) more than 2% of the time?
If we wanna guess, let's guess with 98% probability.

mick

[TexBlue]

Originally posted by mick:

Now, we agree, this ain't gonna happen to you, or me, or any of us that are reading this thing, right?
__________________________________________________ _________


Absolutely. (Now, watch, I'll go brain dead next week). But, and I oughtta clarify my previous post a little, if I meant safe and called the runner out and the runner is just looking at me in disbelief, I cannot now call her out if the defense tags her while off the base, after I've mistakenly given the wrong call. I've now put her in jeopardy by vocally giving the wrong call. Did any of that make sense? If so, then, it should apply to the original scenario also.

And you're right about the probablity of getting to 1st safely. I just don't think you can take the last chance to win away from a team without any recourse at all. I'm not even gonna say this is right, it just seems closer to right than ending the game is. Doing it this way, at least the defense has a chance to still win. By not doing it this way, the game ends and the offense has no chance at all.

[mick]

Originally posted by TexBlue
Doing it this way, at least the defense has a chance to still win. By not doing it this way, the game ends and the offense has no chance at all.

TexBlue,
It seems, though probably subconsciously, in this situation you are favoring the "visiting" offense.

The rule must apply across the board every situation.
Assume the original post, but now, placing the runner on first has jammed the bases and:

The pitcher hurt her shoulder on the last pitch, and/or

The next batter is batting .850 against the pitcher and/or

The home team is batting, the bases were loaded and the winning run from third trotted in to score, because the pitcher and catcher were shaking hands.

Doing it this way, at most the defense has little chance to still win. By doing it this way, the game ends and the defense has little chance at all."

mick

---

T'is a tangled web we weave,....

[Big Kahuna]

Interestingly enough, had this exact situation happen last Saturday. Bottom of 7, runners on 1 and 3, 2 outs, 3-2 pitch, called strike 3, PU (not me) comes up with "Strike 3, batter is out". In the mean time, the catcher is chasing the ball to the back stop, batter goes to first, runner from 3 scores to tie the game while the catcher unsuccessfully tries to throw the batter out at first. Defense coach wants the game called because PU called the batter out, offense wants to play on. We finally decided that since the rule allows the batter to advance, and the three primary players who should know the rule (batter, catcher and first base) all played on like nothing unusual had happened, we let the play stand, took the heat and went on to extra innings. You gotta love this game.

[TexBlue]

Ahhhhhh, the exact end result I woulda given. Although the catcher and other defensive participants kept on playing, I still think you gotta let the teams decide the game.

[TexBlue]

Originally posted by mick:

TexBlue,
It seems, though probably subconsciously, in this situation you are favoring the "visiting" offense.

The rule must apply across the board every situation.
Assume the original post, but now, placing the runner on first has jammed the bases and:

The pitcher hurt her shoulder on the last pitch, and/or

The next batter is batting .850 against the pitcher and/or

The home team is batting, the bases were loaded and the winning run from third trotted in to score, because the pitcher and catcher were shaking hands.
__________________________________________________ _________



The 1st 2 scenarios are immaterial to the mangled rule in question. If the last one is the actual situation ( bases loaded ) I'm heading for the exits real fast. The PU can fend for him/herself and try to get out of this situation.

Nawwwww, I guess in that situation, and that one only, you gotta stick by the original call. For the same reason I quoted before. You can't let one team win or lose because of your call/rule interpretation if it is at all fixable. In this last case, you either have to let a team win or lose and it's gonna happen right then at that moment. So, like you mentioned earlier, you can't appear to be favoring the offense by letting them win by awarding all runners one base. This prevents the defense from having a chance, which was my reasoning for letting the BR go to 1st with only 2 runners on base.

I think at least we can all agree, THIS IS A REAL UGLY SITUATION!

[mick]

Originally posted by TexBlue
This prevents the defense from having a chance, which was my reasoning for letting the BR go to 1st with only 2 runners on base.

TexBlue,
So your only application is with runners on 1st and 2nd, two out, an uncaught 3rd strike wherethe catcher quits because the Umpire verbalizes, "Out!" ---> Disregard defense reaction.

So, what happens when a batted ball is Fair with runners on 1st and 2nd, two out, the fielders quit because the Umpire verbalizes, "Foul!" ---> Disregard defense reaction ?

mick

[TexBlue]

Originally posted by mick:

So, what happens when a batted ball is Fair with runners on 1st and 2nd, two out, the fielders quit because the Umpire verbalizes, "Foul!" ---> Disregard defense reaction ?
__________________________________________________ _________


I'm assuming this was a fair ball and not foul, winning run on 2nd, right? If so, this is another one of those situations where I'm running for the nearest exit that doesn't involve a dugout. Since I couldn't have made a mistake like that, my partner is own their own.

[Edited by TexBlue on Mar 22nd, 2004 at 12:04 AM]

[Dakota]

First, I've read the first couple of posts on this topic, but only scanned the rest, so I apoligize if this is repetitive.

Let's assume that the umpire decides to let his call stand.

Offense officially protests. The protest would be upheld, since the batter-runner was NOT out by rule, and the defense made no play to retire her.

On U3K, the assumption of the NFHS rule book is that the defense is required to know the situation. The umpire is not responsible for DC plays.

The catcher knew (or should have known) this situation, yet the catcher rolled the ball into the infield.

So, the offense protests. The protest is upheld. The game continues from the point of the overturned call.

The umpire, realizing he has misapplied the rule, could (using 10-2-3m as his authority) act as a mini-protest committee and uphold the "protest" against his own call and go from there.

As bad as this situation is, the facts are the BR is NOT out (despite the umpire's call - since this was NOT a judgment call), and the defense is required to know the game situation. Since the BR is NOT out, the game is NOT over. The game must be continued with as fair a resolution as possible.

What would I do? BFOM. But I probably would NOT just allow the game to end. My inclination would be to place the BR on 1st, since the offense was the team placed in greater jeopardy by the call (since the defense knew the "truth").

[mick]

Originally posted by Dakota

On U3K, the assumption of the NFHS rule book is that the defense is required to know the situation. The umpire is not responsible for DC plays.

Dakota,
What page is that on?
What is "DC plays" ?
Thanks,
mick