Reversed call at 1st with 2 outs

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

I'm not so sure it was handled correctly by the umpires.

I would love to know what the umpires discussed.
BU: Did I miss the call? (Not the question to ask)
PU: Yes, you did. (Not the appropriate response to the question)
Call is reversed (Wrong result)

If BU is in "A" (albeit in the wrong position), it would seem to me that he had all four elements of the play in front of him. That would make this a "Judgement Call", and would preclude him from asking for and getting "help".

Yes, a pulled foot is a legitimate appeal, but that is usually reserved for the calling umpire being, blocked, straight-lined, etc. and usually with BU in "C".
I wonder if there really was a valid appeal in this sitch.

If the conversation did go that way, the result should have been "Eat the bad call and survive the shit storm".

Nothing precludes asking for help. One can if one wishes.

In this replay age getting it right wins.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

If BU is in "A" (albeit in the wrong position), it would seem to me that he had all four elements of the play in front of him. That would make this a "Judgement Call", and would preclude him from asking for and getting "help".

And yet, the OPer said that F3 DID indeed pull her foot early.

I don't agree that this would "preclude him from asking for help".

So ultimately, and by whatever means they used, the umpires did end up getting the call at first base right.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Would you be asking if it was the second inning?

Yes, why? What inning was it and why would that matter?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

I'm not so sure it was handled correctly by the umpires.

I would love to know what the umpires discussed.
BU: Did I miss the call? (Not the question to ask)
PU: Yes, you did. (Not the appropriate response to the question)
Call is reversed (Wrong result)

If BU is in "A" (albeit in the wrong position), it would seem to me that he had all four elements of the play in front of him. That would make this a "Judgement Call", and would preclude him from asking for and getting "help".

Yes, a pulled foot is a legitimate appeal, but that is usually reserved for the calling umpire being, blocked, straight-lined, etc. and usually with BU in "C".
I wonder if there really was a valid appeal in this sitch.

If the conversation did go that way, the result should have been "Eat the bad call and survive the shit storm".

Why do you say no help on judgment calls?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Nothing precludes asking for help. One can if one wishes.

Correct.

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

In this replay age getting it right wins.

That was true before the "replay age".

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Why do you say no help on judgment calls?

Maybe I don't understand this question.

Assuming I do, let's use an extreme well-known example.
Jim Joyce, MLB Umpire who kicked a call that cost a pitcher a perfect game.

He knew he kicked the call.
His partners knew he kicked the call.

My question to you is, why didn't they get together and get it right?

[RKBUmp]

Because the rules say you do not give input on another officials call unless specifically asked by the calling official. He had the ability to go ask his partners himself if he was missing something but by rule his partners cannot go to him and try to get him to overturn his call.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Maybe I don't understand this question.

Assuming I do, let's use an extreme well-known example.
Jim Joyce, MLB Umpire who kicked a call that cost a pitcher a perfect game.

He knew he kicked the call.
His partners knew he kicked the call.

My question to you is, why didn't they get together and get it right?

He did not realize it until after seeing a replay in the locker room after the game. Up until that point in time, he believed he had it right. And, IMO, it wasn't as obvious as you make it sound. Any other game this probably wouldn't even have blip on anyone's radar, but this game was magnified by the situation.

If you can find the replay from the CF camera, you can see that the pitcher did not close the glove around the ball right of way. I can see what may have given Joyce a problem, but he didn't mention it in his interview.

[tcannizzo]

OK, I'm not going down the Jim Joyce rabbit hole.
And maybe I have an 0-2 count on the message board.
One more swing, then that's it.

It has always been my understanding that judgement calls should never be reversed (no matter how bad the call may have been); it is a matter of game integrity.

Specifically:
a.) If the calling umpire has all four of the elements in front of him/her, then it is a judgement call; and not legitimate grounds for asking for, or giving, help.
b.) Going for help (with or without an appeal) is reserved for those circumstances when the calling umpire did not have all four elements of the play in front of him/her.

Simply put, "help" is the opportunity to provide additional information that was not available to the calling umpire, not just another opinion on the same set of facts.

I will also say this. We have some rec leagues where a regular umpire will have a youth umpire partner with no formal training. It is clearly understood, that whatever call the youth umpire makes, the call will not be changed by the regular umpire, even if the coaches request.

If this is not the case, I will go back to my assignors, trainers, clinicians and mentors and tell them I got it wrong.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

It has always been my understanding that judgement calls should never be reversed (no matter how bad the call may have been); it is a matter of game integrity.

Specifically:
a.) If the calling umpire has all four of the elements in front of him/her, then it is a judgement call; and not legitimate grounds for asking for, or giving, help.
b.) Going for help (with or without an appeal) is reserved for those circumstances when the calling umpire did not have all four elements of the play in front of him/her.

I was working a women's slow pitch game with a partner who was on the bases. At one point during the game, he zoned out and made an egregiously bad call at first base. About the time he made the call, he must have popped back into reality because he immediately called time out (usually the plate umpire's duty). He came in and said to me, "I just blew that call and need some help." I just nodded and said something like "OK, make it right."

He reversed the call, everyone was happy, and we continued the game.

He had all 4 elements in front of him, but because he dozed off for a play, made a bad judgment call. The good news was that he realized it and we were able to fix it.