Misapplication of rule???

[Insane Blue]

Was this handled correctly per NFHS Code.

1 out Bases loaded.
B4 hits a shot to outfield for 2nd out runners tag up, play at third for 3rd out.

Coach ask "did run count" PU states the runner missed the plate as she passed it so no run.


The BU gets together with PU and discusses the play. PU states that the runner crossed the plate before the 3rd out but missed the base but retouched the plate after the 3rd out.

BU informs the PU umpire that by rule the Runner is to be considered safe as the Defense did not appeal the missed plate and the fact that the runner came back and touched the plate before a 4th out appeal that the run should in fact score.

I was the BU for this game. I belong to 2 HS groups and have been told 2 different things.
Is this a correctable misapplication of the rules and was it handled properly.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Insane Blue

Was this handled correctly per NFHS Code.

1 out Bases loaded.
B4 hits a shot to outfield for 2nd out runners tag up, play at third for 3rd out.

Coach ask "did run count" PU states the runner missed the plate as she passed it so no run.


The BU gets together with PU and discusses the play. PU states that the runner crossed the plate before the 3rd out but missed the base but retouched the plate after the 3rd out.

BU informs the PU umpire that by rule the Runner is to be considered safe as the Defense did not appeal the missed plate and the fact that the runner came back and touched the plate before a 4th out appeal that the run should in fact score.

I was the BU for this game. I belong to 2 HS groups and have been told 2 different things.
Is this a correctable misapplication of the rules and was it handled properly.

the first thing I have to ask is when did the runner come back and touch the plate? Was it after the PU had indicated to the coach the run did not score, or was it an immediate act before any influence by the umpire?

Either way I have the run scoring as there was no appeal for the runner missing the plate and she did cross the plate prior to the third out on a timing play.

[CecilOne]

It comes down to a runner is considered to have reached a base that they passed; unless the defense correctly appeals the miss.

Umpires may not rule on an appealable play until asked.
Calling a player out for a missed base or a calling a run not counting violates that rule.

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

the first thing I have to ask is when did the runner come back and touch the plate? Was it after the PU had indicated to the coach the run did not score, or was it an immediate act before any influence by the umpire?

Either way I have the run scoring as there was no appeal for the runner missing the plate and she did cross the plate prior to the third out on a timing play.

Immediately no influence by PU

[Insane Blue]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

It comes down to a runner is considered to have reached a base that they passed; unless the defense correctly appeals the miss.

Umpires may not rule on an appealable play until asked.
Calling a player out for a missed base or a calling a run not counting violates that rule.

The question becomes as the BU did I do the right thing in going to my partner to correct the misapplication of PU ruling no run.

I am getting 2 different statements from the 2 HS units I work with.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Insane Blue

The question becomes as the BU did I do the right thing in going to my partner to correct the misapplication of PU ruling no run.

I am getting 2 different statements from the 2 HS units I work with.

If it is a misapplication of a rule, you should definitely discuss it with your partner, but try doing it discreetly. And you better be sure you are correct

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Insane Blue

The question becomes as the BU did I do the right thing in going to my partner to correct the misapplication of PU ruling no run.

I am getting 2 different statements from the 2 HS units I work with.

I would discuss with my partner, PRIVATELY.

What are the specifics of the two versions?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

And you better be sure you are correct

But is he here? I'm without access to a book at the moment. But I would have said that by fixing the baserunning mistake the point at which the runner scored was when she ACTUALLY touched the plate.

[jmkupka]

Yep, if it's a rule interp situation, you as the partner can (discretely) give your opinion, unsolicited, to the calling umpire

if she passed HP before the 3rd out, and no appeal before the retouch, the run counts.

[Manny A]

Ok, so the PU screwed up initially by telling the coach that the runner missed the base. He should've kept that to himself. Since the runner passed home before the third out was recorded, then the PU should've answered the question, "Does the run count?" by simply answering "Yes, she reached home before the third out."

Now comes the question that I'm not sure how it's handled in sanctions that allow dead ball appeals. I know that in baseball where only live ball appeals are allowed, a runner can correct a running mistake after three outs are recorded and before a "live" fourth out appeal is attempted. So in this play, if the catcher had said, "Throw the ball home! He missed the plate!", the runner can hustle back to touch home to negate the appeal.

In softball, however, I'm not certain since we do allow dead ball appeals. The new rule in NCAA play about when dead ball appeals can be recognized--as soon as it's clear the violating runner has demonstrated no intent to fix a mistake--would support an out call here if the defense announces that they saw the runner miss home. But I don't know how that's handled in NFHS or USA, where supposedly a runner can always correct a mistake until she enters DBT.

I also don't know if softball allows for continued base running to correct mistakes after the third out of the inning is recorded. So the fact that this runner passed but missed home on her way forward before the third out, but then returned and corrected her mistake after the third out is called, does that constitute a legal touch of the plate to avoid the fourth out appeal? Or can the defense still request a dead ball appeal to nullify the run?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Ok, so the PU screwed up initially by telling the coach that the runner missed the base. He should've kept that to himself. Since the runner passed home before the third out was recorded, then the PU should've answered the question, "Does the run count?" by simply answering "Yes, she reached home before the third out."

Now comes the question that I'm not sure how it's handled in sanctions that allow dead ball appeals. I know that in baseball where only live ball appeals are allowed, a runner can correct a running mistake after three outs are recorded and before a "live" fourth out appeal is attempted. So in this play, if the catcher had said, "Throw the ball home! He missed the plate!", the runner can hustle back to touch home to negate the appeal.

In softball, however, I'm not certain since we do allow dead ball appeals. The new rule in NCAA play about when dead ball appeals can be recognized--as soon as it's clear the violating runner has demonstrated no intent to fix a mistake--would support an out call here if the defense announces that they saw the runner miss home. But I don't know how that's handled in NFHS or USA, where supposedly a runner can always correct a mistake until she enters DBT.

I also don't know if softball allows for continued base running to correct mistakes after the third out of the inning is recorded. So the fact that this runner passed but missed home on her way forward before the third out, but then returned and corrected her mistake after the third out is called, does that constitute a legal touch of the plate to avoid the fourth out appeal? Or can the defense still request a dead ball appeal to nullify the run?

Don't care what baseball does or doesn't do

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Don't care what baseball does or doesn't do

We know that, but please comment on this (real world) part of Manny's post.

"But I don't know how that's handled in NFHS or USA, where supposedly a runner can always correct a mistake until she enters DBT.

I also don't know if softball allows for continued base running to correct mistakes after the third out of the inning is recorded. So the fact that this runner passed but missed home on her way forward before the third out, but then returned and corrected her mistake after the third out is called, does that constitute a legal touch of the plate to avoid the fourth out appeal? Or can the defense still request a dead ball appeal to nullify the run?"

[Tru_in_Blu]

I'd think that the runner passing but not touching home is still at risk if the defense appeals.

So if the defense has a chance to get the runner out, it would only seem fair that the runner should have a chance to correct the base running error.

[bbman]

1 out Bases loaded.
B4 hits a shot to outfield for 2nd out runners tag up, play at third for 3rd out.

Coach ask "did run count" PU states the runner missed the plate as she passed it so no run.

I would like meet this PU. He is GOOD, REALLY GOOD!!!
First he calls catch/no catch, then he watches runner from third tag up(or not), then he watches to see if runner from third tags home, then he makes an out call at third base.
My hats off to him.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by bbman

1 out Bases loaded.
B4 hits a shot to outfield for 2nd out runners tag up, play at third for 3rd out.

Coach ask "did run count" PU states the runner missed the plate as she passed it so no run.

I would like meet this PU. He is GOOD, REALLY GOOD!!!
First he calls catch/no catch, then he watches runner from third tag up(or not), then he watches to see if runner from third tags home, then he makes an out call at third base.
My hats off to him.

And those are all his/her responsibilities. The deviation would be if the throw from the outfield was initially heading home, which would require the PU to stay home for the play, and the BU would then take the play at third base on the cutoff throw from the infield.