Is misapplication of a balk rule protestable?

[andrewm]

I'm still dealing with the pickoff from the windup issue with a few umps in our USSSA league. Some know the rule, some don't. The ones that don't say they'll look it up for future reference. However, I have one ump that said he would look it up after I asked him about it before a game. Before our next game he told me that he looked it up and called USSSA and told me it was a balk. He said he'd call a balk every time we ran it. For league games, that's fine, I'm not going to press the issue. But, if he calls a tournament game and balks us, I don't really want to let it slide.

I know judgement calls are not protestable, and generally balks are judgement calls. But can I protest for a misapplication of the balk rule?

If not, I'll just have to live with it when he umps our games.

[GarthB]

I don't know the rules of your league.

In general, "In my judgment the pitcher didn't come to a complete stop." is not subject to protest.

However, "In my judgment the rules say a pitcher can't attempt a pickoff from the wind-up" is in reality a misapplication of the rules (except in FED) and would be protestable.

[ozzy6900]

Originally posted by andrewm
I'm still dealing with the pickoff from the windup issue with a few umps in our USSSA league. Some know the rule, some don't. The ones that don't say they'll look it up for future reference. However, I have one ump that said he would look it up after I asked him about it before a game. Before our next game he told me that he looked it up and called USSSA and told me it was a balk. He said he'd call a balk every time we ran it. For league games, that's fine, I'm not going to press the issue. But, if he calls a tournament game and balks us, I don't really want to let it slide.

I know judgement calls are not protestable, and generally balks are judgement calls. But can I protest for a misapplication of the balk rule?

If not, I'll just have to live with it when he umps our games.

For those of us that do not officiate USSSA games, what rules are they played under?

If they use FED rules, then a pickoff attempt from the windup is a balk.

[andrewm]

Originally posted by ozzy6900

For those of us that do not officiate USSSA games, what rules are they played under?

If they use FED rules, then a pickoff attempt from the windup is a balk.

OBR

[mcrowder]

The trick to winning a protest like this is for Blue to actually state what he saw and make sure it agrees with what you think is legal. If he says, "In my judgement, your pitcher attempted a pickoff from the windup, and that's illegal", you have to make sure he also saw (and agrees) that the pitcher DID do the things necessary to make this pickoff legal.

What, exactly, is the rule in question that he is disagreeing with?

[thumpferee]

OBR 8.01a The Windup Position.

If a pitcher holds the ball with both hands in front of his body, with his entire pivot foot on or in front of and touching but not off the end of the pitcher's plate, and his other foot free, he will be considered in a windup position. From this position he may: (1) deliver the ball to the batter, or (2) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick off a runner.

The rule also states: He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter.

[andrewm]

Originally posted by mcrowder
What, exactly, is the rule in question that he is disagreeing with?

That in OBR, which USSSA plays under, a pitcher can pickoff from the windup without stepping off the rubber. He says you must step off first.

I had a lengthy post discussing this a few weeks ago.

Let me describe the move I'm talking about:

Right handed pitcher, from the windup (both feet on the rubber, facing the catcher, glove in front, hand on ball in glove). Runner on first. Pitcher steps directly towards first base with his left foot and throws. Note: pitcher's normal delivery has his free foot stepping back behind the rubber and not to the side. Otherwise, step towards first could be interpreted as the start of the normal delivery to the plate, and therefore a balk.

[mcrowder]

"He says you must step off first". That's the info I was looking for. If he balks you, and says that, then yes, you definitely have a protestable situation.

[thumpferee]

Originally posted by andrewm

That in OBR, which USSSA plays under, a pitcher can pickoff from the windup without stepping off the rubber. He says you must step off first.

I had a lengthy post discussing this a few weeks ago.

Let me describe the move I'm talking about:

Right handed pitcher, from the windup (both feet on the rubber, facing the catcher, glove in front, hand on ball in glove). Runner on first. Pitcher steps directly towards first base with his left foot and throws. Note: pitcher's normal delivery has his free foot stepping back behind the rubber and not to the side. Otherwise, step towards first could be interpreted as the start of the normal delivery to the plate, and therefore a balk.

I think he is confusing FED with OBR.

I believe in FED, once his hands came together this would be considered the start of a windup, and ruled a balk.

[aevans410]

In FED, you cannot do anything out of the wind up except pitch or step off. Throwing to a base from the wind up is an automatic balk.

[LDUB]

Originally posted by thumpferee

I think he is confusing FED with OBR.

I believe in FED, once his hands came together this would be considered the start of a windup, and ruled a balk.

The pitcher never brought his hands together.

[Macaroo]

Then he was never in the Windup Position. Read 8.01a

[LDUB]

Originally posted by Macaroo
Then he was never in the Windup Position. Read 8.01a

So you don't allow pitchers to stand with their hands at their sides while they take their sign, and then start their movement to pitch without bringing their hands together first?

[DG]

Originally posted by andrewm
I'm still dealing with the pickoff from the windup issue with a few umps in our USSSA league. Some know the rule, some don't. The ones that don't say they'll look it up for future reference. However, I have one ump that said he would look it up after I asked him about it before a game. Before our next game he told me that he looked it up and called USSSA and told me it was a balk. He said he'd call a balk every time we ran it. For league games, that's fine, I'm not going to press the issue. But, if he calls a tournament game and balks us, I don't really want to let it slide.

I know judgement calls are not protestable, and generally balks are judgement calls. But can I protest for a misapplication of the balk rule?

If not, I'll just have to live with it when he umps our games.

If you can get the umpire to admit that he called a balk because you can't make a pickoff attempt from the windup position then you have a protestable situation, ie not a judgment call, just misapplication of the rules. But it would be far better and more efficient to coach players in the fundamentals, instead of focusing on obscure rules and trick plays.

[thumpferee]

Originally posted by LDUB

The pitcher never brought his hands together.

Unless I'm reading this wrong, it sounds to me like his hands were together.

"Right handed pitcher, from the windup (both feet on the rubber, facing the catcher, glove in front, hand on ball in glove"