The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 25, 2018, 12:10pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,137
JO pool play EP

From the March “clarificatons” about JO pool play:
An EP can be a pinch runner for anyone.
However our Re-entry Rule would still be in effect.
The EP would be considered a substitute for the person they are running so the person who they run for and the EP running will have one more reentry.
The EP is now tied to that person and can only pinch run for that person.
Once they have used up their re-entry they still may bat and play defense but can no longer be a pinch runner.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...


Presumably, the EP does not use a re-entry when afterward batting in her original EP spot, as she never left the game.
That means she can run for that other twice.

Example, Annabelle an EP, runs for Beatrice. Later, Beatrice is replaced by Clarissa.
1) Does “can only pinch run for that person” mean Annabelle cannot run for Clarissa. It would seem so, because it says “person”.

What happens if the "anyone" spot comes up again and the "anyone" player has already used re-entry?
2) Continuing, Beatrice re-enters and bats again.
If Annabelle runs for Beatrice again, does that mean Clarissa must replace her next time that batting spot comes up?

3) What about if no Clarissa or other subs, is Annabelle trying to run for Beatrice again an illegal re-entry for Annabelle? It seems so.

OK, 2 & 3 might be TWP, but is anything with a new rule after last year's version?
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 31, 2018, 12:02pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,137
Do you know how hard it is to create a post with multiple questions which gets no response?

I guess there have been others, but ...

Happy Easter anyway !!
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 31, 2018, 06:34pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,437
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
From the March “clarificatons” about JO pool play:
An EP can be a pinch runner for anyone.
However our Re-entry Rule would still be in effect.
The EP would be considered a substitute for the person they are running so the person who they run for and the EP running will have one more reentry.


Well, no it isn't one more, it is just a re-entry

Quote:

The EP is now tied to that person and can only pinch run for that person.
Once they have used up their re-entry they still may bat and play defense but can no longer be a pinch runner.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...
Never cared for this rule in general.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.

Last edited by IRISHMAFIA; Sat Mar 31, 2018 at 06:38pm.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 04, 2018, 06:31am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,137
From the Clarifications:
"An EP can be a pinch runner for anyone. However our Re-entry Rule would still be in effect. The EP would be considered a substitute for the person they are running so the person who they run for and the EP running will have one more reentry. The EP is now tied to that person and can only pinch run for that person. Once they have used up their re-entry they still may bat and play defense but can no longer be a pinch runner. . "

Example, Annabelle an EP, runs for Beatrice. Later, Beatrice is replaced by Clarissa.

I understand the "person" bolded above to mean a batting order slot, not literally "person".
So, “can only pinch run for that person” does not mean Annabelle cannot run for Clarissa.
Do you agree?
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Fri May 04, 2018, 06:39am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
From the March “clarificatons” about JO pool play:
An EP can be a pinch runner for anyone.
However our Re-entry Rule would still be in effect.
The EP would be considered a substitute for the person they are running so the person who they run for and the EP running will have one more reentry.

What happens if the "anyone" spot comes up again and the "anyone" player has already used re-entry?

Annabelle runs for Beatrice, then Beatrice re-enters and bats again.
1) If Annabelle runs for Beatrice again, does that mean a legal sub must replace Annabelle next time that batting spot comes up?
2) What happens if there are no more subs? Shorthanded?
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 09, 2018, 12:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Derry, NH
Posts: 1,043
We have our first USA tournament this coming weekend. I'm dreading the clusters that this rule is going to cause. Coaches don't know the rule, umpires don't know the rule.

I do have a question, but maybe no one is answering questions because nobody knows...

Question - coach used a CR for F1 or F2 which was a risk based on the fact that CR might be due up to bat. Coach realizes this when there is 1 or 2 outs and now wants to insert a "pinch runner" for F1 or F2, thus removing the CR from the base so as not to take an out when she is due to bat. Allow?

Remember - An EP can be a pinch runner for anyone.

When exactly would the player that the CR is running for be declared out? Who would notify the umpire? Could the coach ask for time and state he has a "pinch runner" for the F1 or F2 that had the CR? Would the offense simply try to skip over that batter and hope it wasn't noticed?

[sigh...]
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 24, 2018, 11:54am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Derry, NH
Posts: 1,043
More pool play stuff. We hosted an invitational this weekend. Saturday was pool play.

Starter #13

Substitute #11 for #13

Re-enter #13

Coach: "Blue, I want to re-enter #11 and use #13 as a pinch runner."

Me: "Hold on coach, let's do this one at a time. You want to re-enter #11? If so, that means #13 is out and has no re-entries left. Is that what you want to do?"

Coach: "I can't use her (#13) as a pinch runner?"

Me: "No, she will be considered out of the game."

Coach: "OK, never mind."

Me: "So you have no changes at this time?"

Coach: "No changes."

Question which didn't come up and which never was pursued:

If there was a pitcher or catcher on base at the time (bases were actually loaded, although I wasn't sure if a pitcher or catcher was one of the runners), could the coach have made the re-entry of #11, removing #13 from the bases. Then, could #13 have been a CR for a pitcher or catcher on base? (There had been no CR usage up to this point in the game.)
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 26, 2018, 10:48am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Derry, NH
Posts: 1,043
Hey, Ceese,

You were right about no one answering questions on this post.

Gets lots of views, but no answers.

Guess no one knows or really cares about pool play.
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 26, 2018, 11:52am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Maine
Posts: 151
I'll take a shot at this. I would allow #13 to be a CR under the pool play EP rules. Rule states any player on the roster can be a CR. All other rules do apply to the CR though with the exception of C which states player can not have been in the game.

I am heading into my first JO tourney this weekend so should be interesting.
__________________
Ken
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 26, 2018, 02:29pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 1,634
A "what if" roster batting question I was thinking about this morning...

Team is batting the entire roster in pool play- let's say 14 batters.

Somewhere along the line, B7 is injured. Coach removes her from the line-up, but doesn't report this to the umpire.

Next time through, B6 completes her at-bat, then B8 comes to the plate. B8 completes at-bat, then defensive coach protests batting out of order.

Is there a such a thing as an unreported line-up compression???

And if there is, what is the penalty???
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 26, 2018, 03:28pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by BretMan View Post
A "what if" roster batting question I was thinking about this morning...

Team is batting the entire roster in pool play- let's say 14 batters.

Somewhere along the line, B7 is injured. Coach removes her from the line-up, but doesn't report this to the umpire.

Next time through, B6 completes her at-bat, then B8 comes to the plate. B8 completes at-bat, then defensive coach protests batting out of order.

Is there a such a thing as an unreported line-up compression???

And if there is, what is the penalty???
If umpires did not know B7 was removed, she is still in the lineup. It does not matter if the defense knows unless the umpires do.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 27, 2018, 11:58am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 1,634
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
If umpires did not know B7 was removed, she is still in the lineup. It does not matter if the defense knows unless the umpires do.
That's what I was thinking. But, which rule tells us that a "compression" must be reported to the umpire?
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 27, 2018, 12:15pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by BretMan View Post
That's what I was thinking. But, which rule tells us that a "compression" must be reported to the umpire?
Maybe RS 51, by implication.

My point was that if not reported, it stays the same.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 27, 2018, 03:00pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
More pool play stuff. Question which didn't come up and which never was pursued:

If there was a pitcher or catcher on base at the time (bases were actually loaded, although I wasn't sure if a pitcher or catcher was one of the runners), could the coach have made the re-entry of #11, removing #13 from the bases. Then, could #13 have been a CR for a pitcher or catcher on base? (There had been no CR usage up to this point in the game.)
I have to agree with Duke, any player may be CR; in this case #13 whether she has re-entry or not.

For the original sub comment, you did not say #13 was on base. Ok, then #11 would be on base; leaving 2 other possible runners as pitcher or catcher .

Given coaches general weakness on terms ("the SS interfered" ); I suggest asking the coach if he/she meant pinch runner or courtesy runner.


Pool play lineup exceptions have been ambiguous at best.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jun 27, 2018, 08:22pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,437
Quote:
Originally Posted by BretMan View Post
That's what I was thinking. But, which rule tells us that a "compression" must be reported to the umpire?
Do you know of any other instance where the batting order changes where the changes is no required to be reported?
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pigskin Pool mwalker13004 Basketball 3 Fri Aug 19, 2005 06:15pm
New Pool 2 - The Sequel.. Just Curious Basketball 2 Mon Feb 07, 2005 10:09am
Organization of a New Pool Just Curious Basketball 1 Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:57pm
New Pool Just Curious Basketball 1 Fri Dec 31, 2004 03:18am
New Pool Just Curious Softball 0 Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:16pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:17pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1