The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sun Mar 25, 2018, 08:03pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,282
A lookback violation is not one of the exceptions to the obstruction rule that would allow the runner to be called out.
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2018, 08:40am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 569
Not saying LBR is one of the exceptions.

I'm asking, when is the play considered over, if not when the ball is in the circle, and runner is on the base they would have been awarded?
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2018, 08:55am
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
Not saying LBR is one of the exceptions.

I'm asking, when is the play considered over, if not when the ball is in the circle, and runner is on the base they would have been awarded?
As I mentioned in my earlier post on this scenario, why wouldn't the BU call Time as soon as the ball is in the circle, make the announcement that he/she had Obstruction, and just say the runner stays at first base? It provides closure on the violation (everyone presumably saw the DDB signal), and prevents the mess you're describing.

But if you really insist on not saying anything after F1 has the ball in the circle, I'm still not calling a LBR violation should the runner be instructed to go to second base. The last play and any violations that took place are still viable, IMHO, until the pitcher delivers a pitch (legal or illegal).

That's how we handle other situations like appeal plays for runners missing bases, batting out of order violations, use of illegal equipment, etc. etc. We still recognize that the violation exists and can be ruled upon until that pitcher delivers the next pitch.

So even if F1 has the ball in the circle, walks up to the plate, steps on the plate, and keeps her hands separated as she looks in for the sign, I'm recognizing that the previous BR who was obstructed STILL cannot be put out between those two bases. If she comes off at that point and heads to second, I'm calling Time and putting her back to first. And then I'm likely going to eject the defensive head coach.

But why set myself up for that much trouble? Just call Time when play is over, and announce the Obstruction violation with the runner remaining on first base.
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2018, 10:34am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 569
I understand wanting to avoid the hassle, but we don't call time (to announce the award) in any other OBS situation where the runner is safely on the base she should've reached.

In the past thread that was referred to, one element mentioned was, F5 (while running the ball back to the pitcher) asks for TIME, in order to end the play.

I was told in no uncertain terms, we do NOT grant time for F5. We tell her, "if you want the play to end, get the ball in the circle." (paraphrased)

So, here, the ball's in the circle, but the consensus here is, the play is still not over?

There are times when a pitcher can be still considered a fielder while in the circle, where we pause before enacting the LBR, but that's not the case here.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2018, 10:37am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Derry, NH
Posts: 1,030
It does seem as though there should be some end point after the OBS call and the ball is in the circle.

You could have a runner dancing back and forth off first base that most will recognize as a LBR violation.

Heck, the runner could break for second base while F1 is taking her signal. (I guess that is the opposite of a delayed steal. )

If an umpire doesn't call time, what happens if the runner from first leaves early on the next pitch. Do we have an out for leaving early, or are we still protecting that runner from the OBS call??
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2018, 11:08am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
It does seem as though there should be some end point after the OBS call and the ball is in the circle.

You could have a runner dancing back and forth off first base that most will recognize as a LBR violation.

Heck, the runner could break for second base while F1 is taking her signal. (I guess that is the opposite of a delayed steal. )

If an umpire doesn't call time, what happens if the runner from first leaves early on the next pitch. Do we have an out for leaving early, or are we still protecting that runner from the OBS call??

Hmmmmm.....an umpire calling time when all obvious play is complete.......in a FP game.....who would ever come up with such an idea?
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2018, 12:03pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Derry, NH
Posts: 1,030
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Hmmmmm.....an umpire calling time when all obvious play is complete.......in a FP game.....who would ever come up with such an idea?
Guess that tickles your fancy!
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2018, 12:45pm
Stirrer of the Pot
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lowcountry, SC
Posts: 2,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
I understand wanting to avoid the hassle, but we don't call time (to announce the award) in any other OBS situation where the runner is safely on the base she should've reached.
Where is that written? I've often heard umpires say this, but is it a mandated exception to the mechanic?

In my experience, if I say nothing after I call obstruction, inevitably somebody is going to ask the question, "Hey Blue, what about your obstruction call?" So I've always killed play and given a quick explanation for preventive purposes. Nobody has ever told me I shouldn't do it.

Now, I obviously won't bother if the obstructed runner ends up scoring on the play.
__________________
"Let's face it. Umpiring is not an easy or happy way to make a living. In the abuse they suffer, and the pay they get for it, you see an imbalance that can only be explained by their need to stay close to a game they can't resist." -- Bob Uecker
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2018, 02:24pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
Not saying LBR is one of the exceptions.

I'm asking, when is the play considered over, if not when the ball is in the circle, and runner is on the base they would have been awarded?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
...

If an umpire doesn't call time, what happens if the runner from first leaves early on the next pitch. Do we have an out for leaving early, or are we still protecting that runner from the OBS call??
Let's play a fun little game of Rulebook Lawyer. We can all agree that (by rule) an OBS runner cannot be called out between the bases she is obstructed, on the play that she was obstructed, for anything not listed as an exception. The question at hand is: when does one play end and another begin?

The forum refers to the Appellate Court for this question: literally, appeals. I believe we can all agree as an axiom that all appeals must made on or after the play during which the appealable situation happened, in other words "before the NEXT play". Any appeal, be it live-ball/dead-ball/BOO, must be made before the next pitch legal or illegal (by rule). We can use this to assume that the start of the next pitch is the start of the next play, and since fastpitch is a live-ball game, it is also the end of the previous play. If for some reason an umpire declares TIME, the play has ended for the purposes of base running, but not for appeals. NFHS rules require the plate umpire to "point the ball live" before play resumes.

This raises a new question. When does the pitch occur? It does NOT occur when the ball is thrown by the pitcher. It does not occur when the hands come together. Ignoring pre-pitch violations resulting in an IP, the pitch begins when the pitcher separates her hands to start a legal delivery. Until that point, the pitcher can legally remove herself from the pitching plate by stepping back, and no "next" pitch has occurred.

Thus, as to the first question: The play is considered over when the hands separate for the next legal pitch, or when an IP is called prior to the hands separating, or an umpire calls TIME.

As to the second question: An OBS runner leaving early on the next pitch would be called out, as the play on which she was OBS is over, and the next pitch started. However, if the OBS runner was to leave so early that the pitcher had not yet separated her hands, we would have an LBR violation instead. The ball would be dead, and the runner would be returned to her base....unless an umpire had called TIME and/or made awards which were properly touched by runners before the ball was again made live by the plate umpire.

Feel free to pick this semi-TWP analysis apart for purposes of discussion. I'm not an official rules interpreter, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.
__________________
Powder blue since 1998. Longtime forum lurker.
Umpiring Goals: Call the knee strike accurately (getting the low pitch since 2017)/NCAA D1 postseason/ISF-WBSC Certification/Nat'l Indicator Fraternity(completed)

Last edited by teebob21; Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 02:34pm. Reason: Typos
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2018, 04:07pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 569
So in a nutshell, your premise is, a play is not over until the next play begins.

Unless an umpire calls time, or the ball is dead by rule.

I try to read the rulebook and casebook cover to cover before every season (and for reference during ), and I just don't recall ever reading that interpretation.
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2018, 05:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmkupka View Post
So in a nutshell, your premise is, a play is not over until the next play begins.

Unless an umpire calls time, or the ball is dead by rule.

I try to read the rulebook and casebook cover to cover before every season (and for reference during ), and I just don't recall ever reading that interpretation.
You may be 100% right. To be honest, I don't know exactly when a play ends by rule, and the next one begins. It's a little like Supreme Court definition of obscenity: you know it when you see it. I'm just stringing known rules together in an attempt to answer a question that is not explicitly covered in the book.

The loophole here with the OBS runner and subsequent violations is that a "play" is not defined (as discussed above), but a pitch ,and its various outcomes, is defined. I'm trying to fill that loophole for purposes of discussion and clarity by equating a pitch to a play, using the rules. If we replace the word "play" with "pitch" in all of the posts in this thread, I think my logic holds up. Note that I'm not attempting to conflate the "initial play" or "subsequent play" definitions as they apply to OBS. I'm just trying to create a rule-driven definition of "THE PLAY".
__________________
Powder blue since 1998. Longtime forum lurker.
Umpiring Goals: Call the knee strike accurately (getting the low pitch since 2017)/NCAA D1 postseason/ISF-WBSC Certification/Nat'l Indicator Fraternity(completed)

Last edited by teebob21; Mon Mar 26, 2018 at 05:18pm.
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2018, 05:31pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
Let's play a fun little game of Rulebook Lawyer. We can all agree that (by rule) an OBS runner cannot be called out between the bases she is obstructed, on the play that she was obstructed, for anything not listed as an exception. The question at hand is: when does one play end and another begin?

The forum refers to the Appellate Court for this question: literally, appeals. I believe we can all agree as an axiom that all appeals must made on or after the play during which the appealable situation happened, in other words "before the NEXT play". Any appeal, be it live-ball/dead-ball/BOO, must be made before the next pitch legal or illegal (by rule). We can use this to assume that the start of the next pitch is the start of the next play, and since fastpitch is a live-ball game, it is also the end of the previous play. If for some reason an umpire declares TIME, the play has ended for the purposes of base running, but not for appeals. NFHS rules require the plate umpire to "point the ball live" before play resumes.

This raises a new question. When does the pitch occur? It does NOT occur when the ball is thrown by the pitcher. It does not occur when the hands come together. Ignoring pre-pitch violations resulting in an IP, the pitch begins when the pitcher separates her hands to start a legal delivery. Until that point, the pitcher can legally remove herself from the pitching plate by stepping back, and no "next" pitch has occurred.

Thus, as to the first question: The play is considered over when the hands separate for the next legal pitch, or when an IP is called prior to the hands separating, or an umpire calls TIME.

As to the second question: An OBS runner leaving early on the next pitch would be called out, as the play on which she was OBS is over, and the next pitch started. However, if the OBS runner was to leave so early that the pitcher had not yet separated her hands, we would have an LBR violation instead. The ball would be dead, and the runner would be returned to her base....unless an umpire had called TIME and/or made awards which were properly touched by runners before the ball was again made live by the plate umpire.

Feel free to pick this semi-TWP analysis apart for purposes of discussion. I'm not an official rules interpreter, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.
I don't think this works. The rule requires a subsequent play on another RUNNER not just another subsequent play. If so, then you can't get out of this by calling the pitch a play. It is a play but not a play on a runner.
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2018, 06:23pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 636
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngump View Post
I don't think this works. The rule requires a subsequent play on another RUNNER not just another subsequent play. If so, then you can't get out of this by calling the pitch a play. It is a play but not a play on a runner.
Can you expand on this? If we accept that the next pitch isn't a play, then that would protect the OBS runner way beyond the intent of the rule.
__________________
Powder blue since 1998. Longtime forum lurker.
Umpiring Goals: Call the knee strike accurately (getting the low pitch since 2017)/NCAA D1 postseason/ISF-WBSC Certification/Nat'l Indicator Fraternity(completed)
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2018, 07:07pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Derry, NH
Posts: 1,030
"Is a pitch a play" seems to have been discussed before. I think NCAA folks claim that pitching or catching is considered a "play".

NFHS definition of play:
ART 2 Make a Play
a. Any action by the pitcher intended to cause a reaction from the runner(s) as it pertains to the look-back rule. (Some are arguing that the OBS voids this as a play.)
b. Any action by a fielder who is attempting to catch or gain control of a batted or thrown ball.
c. An attempt by a defensive player to retire a runner or a batter-runner. (Maybe this semi-applies, but if the defense does manage to tag the runner off a base, that will kill the play and the runner will be placed accordingly.)

In the Umpires' Manual, page 35, bottom of the page.
Obstruction: The base umpire should immediately:
1. Give the.....
2. When the play becomes dead, make the proper OBS award.

So, if'n we have no "plays", what makes the play dead besides the runner being tagged off a base or an umpire calling "time"?
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 26, 2018, 09:44pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
Can you expand on this? If we accept that the next pitch isn't a play, then that would protect the OBS runner way beyond the intent of the rule.
The obstruction rule does not cancel the obstructed runners protection until a play is made on a different runner. If you are going to be a rule book literalist, then you'd have to keep protecting her through the pitch because that isn't a play on a runner. (It's a play, just not on the runner). The only solution here is to "fix-up" the rulebook. To me that actually does mean the play ends when the pitcher has control and is getting ready to pitch.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NFHS Obstruction by F2? jkumpire Baseball 9 Wed Apr 11, 2018 07:52am
NFHS Obstruction jwwashburn Baseball 2 Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:13am
Obstruction Scrambling Back? BigUmp56 Baseball 6 Mon Jul 30, 2007 08:01am
NFHS Obstruction Mechanics bossman72 Baseball 7 Thu Jul 28, 2005 08:33am
Going Back & Forth, Obstruction Bandit Softball 22 Tue Nov 16, 2004 09:17pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:41am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1