NCAA Softball 2 Out indicator

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

With the exception of a possible rotation in a 3/4 umpire system, why would anyone other than the PU need to be aware of this situation?

Two umpire system, two outs, R1 on 2nd, R2 on 1st. B5 singles to left center; as R1 will appear to score, F7 throws directly to 3rd to make a play on advancing R2.

With no "play" at home, PU moves from the holding zone up to 3rd to make the call, as BU picks up trailing BR. R1 is coasting home (with no play being made), as PU rings out R2 at 3rd. Did the run score?

PU has his back to the plate making the call at 3rd. We are all hoping BU realizes there is a timing play here and can make that call (run scored or did not); I see no downside to a prepitch signal that reminds BU this might depend on him paying attention outside his immediate calling area!!

[umpjim]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Two umpire system, two outs, R1 on 2nd, R2 on 1st. B5 singles to left center; as R1 will appear to score, F7 throws directly to 3rd to make a play on advancing R2.

With no "play" at home, PU moves from the holding zone up to 3rd to make the call, as BU picks up trailing BR. R1 is coasting home (with no play being made), as PU rings out R2 at 3rd. Did the run score?

PU has his back to the plate making the call at 3rd. We are all hoping BU realizes there is a timing play here and can make that call (run scored or did not); I see no downside to a prepitch signal that reminds BU this might depend on him paying attention outside his immediate calling area!!

With two outs and RISP wouldn't the time play signal be given in SB? In BB it would and PU would not leave HP. But would you give a time play signal for every combination of runners and outs that would apply?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Two umpire system, two outs, R1 on 2nd, R2 on 1st. B5 singles to left center; as R1 will appear to score, F7 throws directly to 3rd to make a play on advancing R2.

With no "play" at home, PU moves from the holding zone up to 3rd to make the call, as BU picks up trailing BR. R1 is coasting home (with no play being made), as PU rings out R2 at 3rd. Did the run score?

PU has his back to the plate making the call at 3rd. We are all hoping BU realizes there is a timing play here and can make that call (run scored or did not); I see no downside to a prepitch signal that reminds BU this might depend on him paying attention outside his immediate calling area!!

Okay, what is BU's mechanics on this play?

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by umpjim

With two outs and RISP wouldn't the time play signal be given in SB? In BB it would and PU would not leave HP. But would you give a time play signal for every combination of runners and outs that would apply?

The time play signal is supposed to be given in NCAA play with two outs anytime a runner is on (2 man). Speaking ASA/NFHS, the time play signal isn't even an official thing. This isn't baseball, so the PU responsibilities don't change: we've still got primary coverage on the play at 3B on the first throw from the outfield in all codes.

We don't typically give the signal unless there are two outs (NCAA), but I did it in as in the post above because, as I said, either team could potentially win on any given pitch.

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Okay, what is BU's mechanics on this play?

IMO, same as always but with a reminder to keep his head on a swivel. Steve's scenario presents yet another example of where by-the-book 2-man mechanics can't cover everything, no matter which manual one might be following on the field.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Two umpire system, two outs, R1 on 2nd, R2 on 1st. B5 singles to left center; as R1 will appear to score, F7 throws directly to 3rd to make a play on advancing R2.

With no "play" at home, PU moves from the holding zone up to 3rd to make the call, as BU picks up trailing BR. R1 is coasting home (with no play being made), as PU rings out R2 at 3rd. Did the run score?

PU has his back to the plate making the call at 3rd. We are all hoping BU realizes there is a timing play here and can make that call (run scored or did not); I see no downside to a prepitch signal that reminds BU this might depend on him paying attention outside his immediate calling area!!

I had a similar play in an ASA game a couple of years ago in a slow pitch championship game. We were in the bottom of the 11th inning with 1 out and bases loaded. I was on the bases. The batter hit a fly ball to F7 who was not very deep. All runners were tagging up.

I started coming inside and watched R2 tag at second. I really paid no attention to R3 on first. PU started coming up the line a bit to view the catch. When he noticed that F7 was going to throw to third base instead of home, he moved right up the line for the play at third trying to retire R2.

At that point I realized that I had to watch R1 from third to see if he made it home before an out was recorded at third base. It turned out the PU called R2 safe at third, so the issue was moot.

I was coming inside, but I was still what I considered a long way from HP in the event I needed to make a call on a run scoring or not.

Glad it didn't come to that. I'm sure there would have been a lot of "discussion".

In retrospect, I wondered why R2 kept trying to advance to third. Had he been thrown out, the run might not have scored. He could have drawn a throw and stopped while the winning run crossed the plate. The only possible reversal of that run scoring would be if R1 left early.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by teebob21

The time play signal is supposed to be given in NCAA play with two outs anytime a runner is on (2 man). Speaking ASA/NFHS, the time play signal isn't even an official thing. This isn't baseball, so the PU responsibilities don't change: we've still got primary coverage on the play at 3B on the first throw from the outfield in all codes.

Might want to check your USA umpire manual.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Might want to check your USA umpire manual.

Where?

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Where?

I was thinking the same thing. Not sure what Irish is suggesting that I review...

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by teebob21

I was thinking the same thing. Not sure what Irish is suggesting that I review...

Read the post I cited and then check to see what the USA umpire's manual has for 1st & 2nd with two outs assigned responsibility and see if Teebob's comment is true.

Yeah, this is a pop quiz

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Read the post I cited and then check to see what the USA umpire's manual has for 1st & 2nd with two outs assigned responsibility and see if Teebob's comment is true.

Yeah, this is a pop quiz

Ok, I'll bite:

Originally Posted by teebob21 Speaking ASA/NFHS, the time play signal isn't even an official thing.

Correct, not listed in official signals (pp 30 -36)

PU responsibilities don't change:

Responsibilities do not change with the number of outs, as mechanics are listed by runners on base without the number of outs as a qualifier.

we've still got primary coverage on the play at 3B on the first throw from the outfield in all codes.

Mostly correct. - PU has primary coverage on "lead runner at 3rd." Where I rate this as "mostly" is the choice to use "first throw." The first throw could be the "last runner" into third which belongs to BU.

Unless you are looking at a different page than 68-69 (FP) or 78 (SP), he is correct (with slight wording modification).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Ok, I'll bite:


Correct, not listed in official signals (pp 30 -36)




Responsibilities do not change with the number of outs, as mechanics are listed by runners on base without the number of outs as a qualifier.



Mostly correct. - PU has primary coverage on "lead runner at 3rd." Where I rate this as "mostly" is the choice to use "first throw." The first throw could be the "last runner" into third which belongs to BU.

Unless you are looking at a different page than 68-69 (FP) or 78 (SP), he is correct (with slight wording modification).

The lead runner wasn't going to 3rd, was she?

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The lead runner wasn't going to 3rd, was she?

Yes, seems to be a "hole" in the mechanic. However, the BU's "last runner" statement makes the "middle" runner (the runner starting on first base) belonging to the PU, unless:

There are four times, after the ball has been batted that a base
umpire will make a call at 3B:
1. On the Batter-Runner on a triple with no runners on base.
2. On the last runner into 3B.
3. On a lone runner on a fly ball advancement.
4. On any return throw from the plate area or cut-off by a player.
p.57

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

4. On any return throw from the plate area or cut-off by a player.

Which is why I've always been taught that an initial play at 3B on the first throw from the outfield belongs to the PU, unless that play is made on the B/R.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Big Slick

Yes, seems to be a "hole" in the mechanic. However, the BU's "last runner" statement makes the "middle" runner (the runner starting on first base) belonging to the PU, unless:

There are four times, after the ball has been batted that a base
umpire will make a call at 3B:
1. On the Batter-Runner on a triple with no runners on base.
2. On the last runner into 3B.
3. On a lone runner on a fly ball advancement.
4. On any return throw from the plate area or cut-off by a player.

Yeah, never cared for this set of absolutes. I am a believer in prioritizing when necessary. I preferred the previous regime's mechanic that the PU has the lead runner and the BU has the rest. That demonstrated the importance they placed on runner closest to the plate.

That said, the field isn't that big for this to be that much of an issue.

[Big Slick]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

[b]
Yeah, never cared for this set of absolutes. I am a believer in prioritizing when necessary. I preferred the previous regime's mechanic that the PU has the lead runner and the BU has the rest. That demonstrated the importance they placed on runner closest to the plate.

That said, the field isn't that big for this to be that much of an issue.

I think these are wonderful guidelines. Not sure how "previous" you want to get, but these guidelines have been around as long as I have, and I wore an Elbeco for many years.

You say: "prioritizing when necessary" is exactly the point of the fourth guideline. Both PU and BU have to read the throw - does it go to third, does it go home or does it get cut - and then read the play from there. What this prevents is a PU who get so focused on the run scoring that a BU is now stranded. Not to mention the dimensions of the slow pitch field are bigger now (for the typical SP umpire - yes, I know the major/super level was always larger).