The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 09, 2017, 07:30pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fremont, NH
Posts: 1,379
verbalize a fly ball out?

During a recent tournament I compiled some inputs for a newer umpire that was working with us. The tournament was a USA sanctioned event.

After composing the tips, I looked up references in the USA Umpire Manual.

Now I have a question about the mechanic for the PU to verbalize the out on a fly ball to the outfield. I also checked my NFHS Umpire Manual to see what they had.

The NFHS covers it under Movement from the Plate in item 4.

“On fly balls to the outfield not near the foul line, move to obtain a good angle to the catch versus straight at the fielder catching the ball. If the ball is caught, give an out signal and a verbal ‘out’ call.”

The USA version is similar, on fly balls not near the foul line: B.1.d.2)

“If the ball is fair and not caught, no signal is needed. No verbal call is given. If the ball is caught, give an out signal.”

There are multiple passages within this section that are greyed out, indicating that these were updates this year.

I have always verbalized (and signaled) even the most can-of-cornish catches. If I have a plate partner who doesn’t verbalize, I’ve always asked that they do.

Is this a change for USA or was something inadvertently omitted?

Four or five years ago, I asked a plate partner why he wasn’t verbalizing fly ball outs. He said he worked “college ball” and the philosophy was no verbal call so as not to (further) embarrass a girl who made an out. He also gave a very weak little fist turn over near his belt. My BS antennae started twitching, but since I don’t work “college ball” I couldn’t refute the statement.

Anyhoos… Comments?
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 09, 2017, 07:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Northeast Nebraska
Posts: 776
My (confusing) philosophy, based on what I have been taught at all levels:

1): Every call is the same: Verbalize and signal, except on pitches called balls (no signal).

2): Every call is different: Some need selling. Others do not. Some, like infield line drives, need no selling but deserve a strong vocal call because the speed of the game is dependent on your call.

Your BS detector is in fine working condition, as far as I can tell.
__________________
Powder blue since 1998. Longtime forum lurker.
Umpiring Goals: Call the knee strike accurately (getting the low pitch since 2017)/NCAA D1 postseason/ISF-WBSC Certification/Nat'l Indicator Fraternity(completed)
"I'm gonna call it ASA for the foreseeable future. You all know what I mean."

Last edited by teebob21; Mon Oct 09, 2017 at 07:56pm.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 09, 2017, 07:45pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fremont, NH
Posts: 1,379
Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
My (confusing) philosophy:

1): Every call is the same: Verbalize and signal, except on pitches called balls (no signal).
Yeah, that was one of the comments I noted for this guy. Every pitch out of the strike zone needed a location flourish. He looked like an orchestra conductor!
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 09, 2017, 08:29pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Northeast Nebraska
Posts: 776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
Yeah, that was one of the comments I noted for this guy. Every pitch out of the strike zone needed a location flourish. He looked like an orchestra conductor!
I smell a self-taught baseball guy.
__________________
Powder blue since 1998. Longtime forum lurker.
Umpiring Goals: Call the knee strike accurately (getting the low pitch since 2017)/NCAA D1 postseason/ISF-WBSC Certification/Nat'l Indicator Fraternity(completed)
"I'm gonna call it ASA for the foreseeable future. You all know what I mean."
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 10, 2017, 03:23pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Glendale, AZ
Posts: 2,672
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
Yeah, that was one of the comments I noted for this guy. Every pitch out of the strike zone needed a location flourish. He looked like an orchestra conductor!
My question to these guys is:

When you call a strike, do you tell everybody where the pitch was?
STRIKE...on the corner!

I usually get a "why the hell would I do that" look, so I ask them why they feel the need to tell everybody when they call a ball....It just looks like they have to justify their call.
__________________
It's what you learn after you think you know it all that's important!
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 10, 2017, 03:30pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
Yeah, that was one of the comments I noted for this guy. Every pitch out of the strike zone needed a location flourish. He looked like an orchestra conductor!
Tell him to just say "I looked all over the strike zone and could not find it."
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 10, 2017, 03:37pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by teebob21 View Post
My (confusing) philosophy, based on what I have been taught at all levels:

1): Every call is the same: Verbalize and signal, except on pitches called balls (no signal).

2): Every call is different: Some need selling. Others do not.
Some, like infield line drives, need no selling but deserve a strong vocal call because the speed of the game is dependent on your call.

Your BS detector is in fine working condition, as far as I can tell.
Agree with the bolded.

Where the play is does not matter, it is the "closeness" and the situation.
Even some base runner calls do not need a verbal.

As to infield line drives, the tough ones get a long & loud verbal to reward the fielder and show the batter they were robbed.

However, I don't get the speed of the game factor.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 10, 2017, 08:20pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 31
If I am trying to watch runners on 1 and 2, I appreciate a loud call for the tag up purposes
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 11, 2017, 09:04am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdogtx View Post
If I am trying to watch runners on 1 and 2, I appreciate a loud call for the tag up purposes
That verbal should not be your indicator of a runner leaving the base properly or not, especially since an out being record has no bearing on when a runner may leave the base to advance on a caught fly ball.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 11, 2017, 01:32pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Northeast Nebraska
Posts: 776
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
That verbal should not be your indicator of a runner leaving the base properly or not, especially since an out being record has no bearing on when a runner may leave the base to advance on a caught fly ball.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilOne View Post
However, I don't get the speed of the game factor.
I give a strong vocal out for a caught infield line drive in order to be a better partner for my crew. It's not supposed to be an indicator of the timing of the catch. If the play is going away from his starting position, or he's straight-lined on the catch (which is fine because he doesn't have the catch/no-catch call here), or there may be concern about a trap, a loud vocal call allows him to know with certainty what the game situation is, even with non-optimal positioning. From there, he can move or read the throw to make a proper call on a snap-throw for the live-ball appeal. Without the vocal, that snap throw can be too quick for him to read the play, watch me signal, and then correctly rule on the secondary play.
__________________
Powder blue since 1998. Longtime forum lurker.
Umpiring Goals: Call the knee strike accurately (getting the low pitch since 2017)/NCAA D1 postseason/ISF-WBSC Certification/Nat'l Indicator Fraternity(completed)
"I'm gonna call it ASA for the foreseeable future. You all know what I mean."
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 09, 2017, 08:52pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
During a recent tournament I compiled some inputs for a newer umpire that was working with us. The tournament was a USA sanctioned event.

After composing the tips, I looked up references in the USA Umpire Manual.

Now I have a question about the mechanic for the PU to verbalize the out on a fly ball to the outfield. I also checked my NFHS Umpire Manual to see what they had.

The NFHS covers it under Movement from the Plate in item 4.

“On fly balls to the outfield not near the foul line, move to obtain a good angle to the catch versus straight at the fielder catching the ball. If the ball is caught, give an out signal and a verbal ‘out’ call.”

The USA version is similar, on fly balls not near the foul line: B.1.d.2)

“If the ball is fair and not caught, no signal is needed. No verbal call is given. If the ball is caught, give an out signal.”

There are multiple passages within this section that are greyed out, indicating that these were updates this year.

I have always verbalized (and signaled) even the most can-of-cornish catches. If I have a plate partner who doesn’t verbalize, I’ve always asked that they do.

Is this a change for USA or was something inadvertently omitted?

Four or five years ago, I asked a plate partner why he wasn’t verbalizing fly ball outs. He said he worked “college ball” and the philosophy was no verbal call so as not to (further) embarrass a girl who made an out. He also gave a very weak little fist turn over near his belt. My BS antennae started twitching, but since I don’t work “college ball” I couldn’t refute the statement.

Anyhoos… Comments?
Yeah, fair amount of bullshit there.

I actually prefer a verbal out on all such calls if for no other reason than keeping a routine. Doesn't have to be loud, just be something other than silence.
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 21, 2017, 01:02am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sherman, TX
Posts: 4,387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
During a recent tournament I compiled some inputs for a newer umpire that was working with us. The tournament was a USA sanctioned event.

After composing the tips, I looked up references in the USA Umpire Manual.

Now I have a question about the mechanic for the PU to verbalize the out on a fly ball to the outfield. I also checked my NFHS Umpire Manual to see what they had.

The NFHS covers it under Movement from the Plate in item 4.

“On fly balls to the outfield not near the foul line, move to obtain a good angle to the catch versus straight at the fielder catching the ball. If the ball is caught, give an out signal and a verbal ‘out’ call.”

The USA version is similar, on fly balls not near the foul line: B.1.d.2)

“If the ball is fair and not caught, no signal is needed. No verbal call is given. If the ball is caught, give an out signal.”

There are multiple passages within this section that are greyed out, indicating that these were updates this year.

I have always verbalized (and signaled) even the most can-of-cornish catches. If I have a plate partner who doesn’t verbalize, I’ve always asked that they do.

Is this a change for USA or was something inadvertently omitted?

Four or five years ago, I asked a plate partner why he wasn’t verbalizing fly ball outs. He said he worked “college ball” and the philosophy was no verbal call so as not to (further) embarrass a girl who made an out. He also gave a very weak little fist turn over near his belt. My BS antennae started twitching, but since I don’t work “college ball” I couldn’t refute the statement.

Anyhoos… Comments?
Okay...I'll play devil's advocate here.

Do you feel a need to verbalize all calls that are obvious to everyone in the ballpark?

A lazy fly ball to the outfield, like an obvious foul, doesn't require a verbal call, IMO. A simple routine out call, just like one used on a runner who is out by 15 feet at first base, is all that is needed. No need to be overly officious. Everyone knows it is an out, just a simple acknowledgement is all that is needed. This way, on closer calls, the verbal has more power. More weight.
__________________
Scott


It's a small world, but I wouldn't want to have to paint it.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sun Oct 22, 2017, 07:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Northeast Nebraska
Posts: 776
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skahtboi View Post
Okay...I'll play devil's advocate here.

Do you feel a need to verbalize all calls that are obvious to everyone in the ballpark?

A lazy fly ball to the outfield, like an obvious foul, doesn't require a verbal call, IMO. A simple routine out call, just like one used on a runner who is out by 15 feet at first base, is all that is needed. No need to be overly officious. Everyone knows it is an out, just a simple acknowledgement is all that is needed. This way, on closer calls, the verbal has more power. More weight.
I verbalize everything. A no doubter at first or a can of corn? "Out." at normal speaking voice + signal. The only person that probably hears me is the F3 on a play at 1B, or the catcher on a fly ball.
__________________
Powder blue since 1998. Longtime forum lurker.
Umpiring Goals: Call the knee strike accurately (getting the low pitch since 2017)/NCAA D1 postseason/ISF-WBSC Certification/Nat'l Indicator Fraternity(completed)
"I'm gonna call it ASA for the foreseeable future. You all know what I mean."
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Oct 23, 2017, 06:52pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Fremont, NH
Posts: 1,379
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skahtboi View Post
Okay...I'll play devil's advocate here.

Do you feel a need to verbalize all calls that are obvious to everyone in the ballpark?
If I'm doing a HS game in NH, absolutely. I always verbalize regardless, even though USA doesn't apparently require it. Not big, loud sell outs, but if my partner is following a runner, I want him/her to hear me.

After an evaluation game one year, the evaluator claimed that I didn't verbalize an out. I was on the bases that game and I responded that I verbalize every out. He further claimed that he didn't see my mouth move. So I lost points for not verbalizing and for having the gall to challenge him on it. Vindictive SOB.
__________________
Ted
USA & NFHS Softball
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 24, 2017, 11:01am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu View Post
If I'm doing a HS game in NH, absolutely. I always verbalize regardless, even though USA doesn't apparently require it.
What leads you to say that?
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Verbalize a fair ball? Tru_in_Blu Softball 18 Tue Apr 11, 2017 01:18pm
Inbounds Ball-ball-ball shouting by defender Flimflam Basketball 14 Mon Jan 19, 2015 03:10pm
Ball, ball, ball, ball, ball, ball, ball, ball...: The Cover rainmaker Basketball 3 Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:12am
Screaming "BALL BALL BALL" during girls games drinkeii Basketball 90 Mon Jul 11, 2005 09:53am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:09am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1