NFHS - Diving catch on collapsing fence

[teebob21]

I might have goofed one last night. I am PU. R1, no outs. BR hits a shot to the gap in left-center. The F8 makes a catch on the run and then crashes into the collapsible fence. Her feet stay in play. While trying to get up, the fielder drops the ball and it lays on the collapsed fence. R1 tags up and advances to 2B.

We let play continue, and I had to deal with a conversation over whether it was a catch or not. I judged that it was, so that was that.

Is a NFHS player out of play in dead-ball territory when lying down on a collapsed fence? In hindsight, I think she is (5-1i(a)) and I should have killed the play. The runner ended up at the correct place, so no actual jeopardy created.

[AtlUmpSteve]

The NFHS and NCAA define the home run line (thus dead ball line) as the base of the fence with the established distance; USA (unless that has also been reinterpreted) includes the fence when it is down, so that uses the top of the fence.

So, the ball was dead when dropped on the fence that lay beyond the "base of the fence" line. Catch and carry applies, since you ruled a catch; it would have been a home run had you ruled "no catch".

Remember, all catches end with a voluntary release ...........

[teebob21]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

The NFHS and NCAA define the home run line (thus dead ball line) as the base of the fence with the established distance; USA (unless that has also been reinterpreted) includes the fence when it is down, so that uses the top of the fence.

So, the ball was dead when dropped on the fence that lay beyond the "base of the fence" line. Catch and carry applies, since you ruled a catch; it would have been a home run had you ruled "no catch".

Remember, all catches end with a voluntary release ...........

I get what you are saying with voluntary release, but I would tend to be careful with "all". Even in the context of the rule, I think a ball can be caught and then later dropped as two separate actions which do not negate the catch. Example: Line drive to F9 to end the inning...then she drops it accidentally in the infield while jogging to her dugout: still a catch.

In this case, the catch was made and retained all the way through the crash on the fence. She had secure possession while on the ground/fence. While she was attempting to get up, the ball came out. I know that I goofed there by not killing it, which brings me back to my original question. Should the play have been ruled dead-ball catch-and-carry as soon as she made contact with the ground while laying on the fence...which was before the potential drop?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Yes. Dead ball, catch and carry when a support point was established beyond the dead ball line (base of fence); you originally only said crashed into, but feet remained in live territory (and I stopped reading, I guess).

The NFHS definition of a catch (and NCAA rules) requires both secure possession AND a voluntary and intentional release. You are substituting the USA/ASA definition that says "and/or", and interpretation that includes "if the fielder could have voluntarily released, but simply didn't yet". I would be happy if the rules are the same, but they aren't, and the context you reference is the USA/ASA rule only.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

The NFHS definition of a catch (and NCAA rules) requires both secure possession AND a voluntary and intentional release. You are substituting the USA/ASA definition that says "and/or", and interpretation that includes "if the fielder could have voluntarily released, but simply didn't yet". I would be happy if the rules are the same, but they aren't, and the context you reference is the USA/ASA rule only.

Does it make a difference in practice? In the case of the third out and F3 trips over the chalk on the circle line and lets the ball roll out of her glove on to the pitchers plate on her way down, are you really ruling safe?
What's the play where on the field you'd rule differently based on the difference in those rules? The one in the OP?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by youngump

Does it make a difference in practice? In the case of the third out and F3 trips over the chalk on the circle line and lets the ball roll out of her glove on to the pitchers plate on her way down, are you really ruling safe?
What's the play where on the field you'd rule differently based on the difference in those rules? The one in the OP?

Fair question.

In both your and the prior "example" (outfielder drops ball in the infield) case plays, I could see ruling the release, WELL AFTER the possession was voluntary and intentional. But in the OP, sorry, as described, I believe see that as a loss of possession before a voluntary release.

I am reminded of a baseball game I watched in mid-80's, when Atlanta Braves were "America's Team", according to TBS Superstation broadcasts. Left fielder Albert Hall "caught" a ball probably 20 feet or more in fair territory on a dead run headed to the foul line, couldn't stop, and dropped the ball after flipping over the short wall. Ruling: ground rule (we know it is a book rule two base award, not a ground rule) double; not a voluntary release. There is no such rule in softball (or, to my knowledge, in baseball) that defines "long enough" as possession.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Yes. Dead ball, catch and carry when a support point was established beyond the dead ball line (base of fence); you originally only said crashed into, but feet remained in live territory (and I stopped reading, I guess).

The NFHS definition of a catch (and NCAA rules) requires both secure possession AND a voluntary and intentional release. You are substituting the USA/ASA definition that says "and/or", and interpretation that includes "if the fielder could have voluntarily released, but simply didn't yet". I would be happy if the rules are the same, but they aren't, and the context you reference is the USA/ASA rule only.

2.9.2 SITUATION B:

B1 hits to F5. The throw to F3 is wide so that it is necessary for F3 to stretch for the catch. The ball arrives in time but as F3 attempts to regain balance she loses possession of the ball. Is the runner out?

RULING: The time element has some influence, but in case of doubt, the umpire will rule the runner safe. Attempts to regain balance after receiving the ball are usually considered a part of the act of catching, and if the fielder does not come up with possession of the ball, it is not considered a catch. In all such cases, there is a judgment factor. If the ball is clearly in possession, and if some other new movement not related to the catch is then made and if the ball is fumbled during such new movement, the umpire will usually declare it a catch followed by a fumble.