NFHS Catch

[Rutsro]

A line drive is hit to the pitcher. The ball lodges in the pitcher's glove but the force of the line drive tears the glove from the pitchers's hand. The glove, with the ball still inside, lands on the ground.

Catch or not?


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[RKBUmp]

Did the pitcher control the ball with properly attached equipment before it hit the ground?

Your answer is no, it is not a catch.

[BlueDevilRef]

I would also say no given the description. She did not maintain control of ball

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Rutsro

A line drive is hit to the pitcher. The ball lodges in the pitcher's glove but the force of the line drive tears the glove from the pitchers's hand. The glove, with the ball still inside, lands on the ground.

Catch or not?


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Not

[Tru_in_Blu]

Or is it not yet?

Has the ball hit the ground? If not can the fielder retrieve the ball inside the glove by picking up the glove? Does that make it a catch yet or would she need to throw the ball to first base to retire the BR?

She did not throw her glove at the ball, so there is no penalty there.

Another related situation. Batter hits a popup near home plate - not very high. F2 searching for the ball removes her helmet and the ball falls into it. F2 did not move her helmet towards the ball, the ball just landed there. (Hey, if there are case studies that think a thrown ball can end up in the umpire's ball bag, this is just as ludicrous, er, possible.) She then reaches into the helmet to retrieve the ball. Is THAT at catch? Or ruled fair or foul depending on the location of the ball when it landed? Or a DDB?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Not

If she picks up the glove has she handled the ball with detached equipment?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Or is it not yet?

Has the ball hit the ground? If not can the fielder retrieve the ball inside the glove by picking up the glove? Does that make it a catch yet or would she need to throw the ball to first base to retire the BR?

She did not throw her glove at the ball, so there is no penalty there.

Another related situation. Batter hits a popup near home plate - not very high. F2 searching for the ball removes her helmet and the ball falls into it. F2 did not move her helmet towards the ball, the ball just landed there. (Hey, if there are case studies that think a thrown ball can end up in the umpire's ball bag, this is just as ludicrous, er, possible.) She then reaches into the helmet to retrieve the ball. Is THAT at catch? Or ruled fair or foul depending on the location of the ball when it landed? Or a DDB?

Legally discarded equipment (catchers's mask, catcher's helmet, batter's bat) laying on the ground is treated as part of the ground. Start there with your "what-if" ludicrousness.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Legally discarded equipment (catchers's mask, catcher's helmet, batter's bat) laying on the ground is treated as part of the ground. Start there with your "what-if" ludicrousness.

F2 has not discarded her catcher's helmet, she was still holding it when the ball fell into it.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

F2 has not discarded her catcher's helmet, she was still holding it when the ball fell into it.

Then, see youngump above.

Either case, handling the ball with detached equipment.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Old case plays and rule references. You decide.

2007:
PLAY 1-16
On a high fly ball, F3 and F4 collide attempting to make the catch. When the collision occurred f3 had the ball in the glove but during the entanglement, F4 ended up with F3's glove and the ball in F4's possession. Neither the ball nor F3's glove touched the ground. What is the call?
RULING: Legal catch, this is not considered catching the ball with detached equipment (-CATCH/NO CATCH; 8-5F

PLAY 8.6-25
B1 hits a line drive, though snared by the leaping F5, pulls off the glove and carries it into the outfield. F7 picks up the ball and throws it to 2B, holding B1 there. The team at bat claims B1 should be awarded 3 bases, because of the ball being hit by a glove detached from the fielder over fair territory.
RULING: No catch is called and B1 remains at 2B. The glove was off the hand due to the line drive and not being thrown at the ball. (8-5F)

PLAY 8.6-27
B1 hits a fair line drive over the head of F5, who jumps high attempting to field the ball. As F5 jumps, the glove accidentally dislodges from F5's hand and it touches the ball.
RULING: The detached glove was not thrown or tossed intentionally at the contacted ball. There is no violation and the ball remains live. (8-5F)

July 2011 Rules and Clarifications
Rule 1 Catch / No Catch
Play: B1 hits a line drive, knocking the glove off F5’s hand. The glove falls to the ground with the ball remaining in the glove. Is this a catch?
Ruling: No catch. (Rule 1, Catch A1: To establish a valid catch the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove control of it and or the release is voluntary.
Rule 1, No Catch B3: It is not a catch when the fielder catches a batted or thrown ball with anything other than the hand(s) or glove / mitt in its proper place.)
The act of knocking the glove off the hand with the ball still in it shows no control is established before the glove comes off and makes this a no catch situation. With the glove lying on the ground even though the ball remains in the glove is an example of detached equipment. In this case, like the helmet or bat lying on the ground, the glove is now part of the ground and a valid catch cannot be completed.


CATCH/NO CATCH
A.2 (catch)
If the ball is merely held in the fielder's arm(s) or prevented from dropping to the ground by some part of the fielder's body, equipment or clothing, the catch is not completed until the ball is in the grasp of the fielder's hands or glove/mitt.

B.3 (no catch)
When a fielder catches a batted or thrown ball with anything other than the hands or glove/mitt in its proper place.

So for our purposes, the ball in the glove laying on the ground would be a no catch.
For the ball that popped into the catcher's helmet, it seems that you could make an argument either way.

Unless I saw F2 actually move the helmet to attempt to catch the ball, I rule a catch once she removed the ball with her bare hand and had control of it. First touch rule would apply to any runners tagging up.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

A.2 (catch)
If the ball is merely held in the fielder's arm(s) or prevented from dropping to the ground by some part of the fielder's body, equipment or clothing, the catch is not completed until the ball is in the grasp of the fielder's hands or glove/mitt.

I say this does not apply because a helmet in a hand is not in its proper place; as opposed to a protector still being worn normally, inside a sleeve, nestled in an elbow, etc.

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

I say this does not apply because a helmet in a hand is not in its proper place; as opposed to a protector still being worn normally, inside a sleeve, nestled in an elbow, etc.

I somewhat agree, however 8.5F says "when a fielder intentionally catches..."

So unless I see her identify the flight of the ball and move her helmet to catch it, I don't think it's a violation.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Tru_in_Blu

Old case plays and rule references. You decide.

2007:
PLAY 1-16
On a high fly ball, F3 and F4 collide attempting to make the catch. When the collision occurred f3 had the ball in the glove but during the entanglement, F4 ended up with F3's glove and the ball in F4's possession. Neither the ball nor F3's glove touched the ground. What is the call?
RULING: Legal catch, this is not considered catching the ball with detached equipment (-CATCH/NO CATCH; 8-5F

PLAY 8.6-25
B1 hits a line drive, though snared by the leaping F5, pulls off the glove and carries it into the outfield. F7 picks up the ball and throws it to 2B, holding B1 there. The team at bat claims B1 should be awarded 3 bases, because of the ball being hit by a glove detached from the fielder over fair territory.
RULING: No catch is called and B1 remains at 2B. The glove was off the hand due to the line drive and not being thrown at the ball. (8-5F)

PLAY 8.6-27
B1 hits a fair line drive over the head of F5, who jumps high attempting to field the ball. As F5 jumps, the glove accidentally dislodges from F5's hand and it touches the ball.
RULING: The detached glove was not thrown or tossed intentionally at the contacted ball. There is no violation and the ball remains live. (8-5F)

July 2011 Rules and Clarifications
Rule 1 Catch / No Catch
Play: B1 hits a line drive, knocking the glove off F5’s hand. The glove falls to the ground with the ball remaining in the glove. Is this a catch?
Ruling: No catch. (Rule 1, Catch A1: To establish a valid catch the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove control of it and or the release is voluntary.
Rule 1, No Catch B3: It is not a catch when the fielder catches a batted or thrown ball with anything other than the hand(s) or glove / mitt in its proper place.)
The act of knocking the glove off the hand with the ball still in it shows no control is established before the glove comes off and makes this a no catch situation. With the glove lying on the ground even though the ball remains in the glove is an example of detached equipment. In this case, like the helmet or bat lying on the ground, the glove is now part of the ground and a valid catch cannot be completed.


CATCH/NO CATCH
A.2 (catch)
If the ball is merely held in the fielder's arm(s) or prevented from dropping to the ground by some part of the fielder's body, equipment or clothing, the catch is not completed until the ball is in the grasp of the fielder's hands or glove/mitt.

B.3 (no catch)
When a fielder catches a batted or thrown ball with anything other than the hands or glove/mitt in its proper place.

So for our purposes, the ball in the glove laying on the ground would be a no catch.
For the ball that popped into the catcher's helmet, it seems that you could make an argument either way.

Unless I saw F2 actually move the helmet to attempt to catch the ball, I rule a catch once she removed the ball with her bare hand and had control of it. First touch rule would apply to any runners tagging up.

I would have to rule no catch on the ball "caught" by F2. Why? Unless the ball bounces off the helmet into the air, the catch was done with something other than the hand or glove/mitt in its proper place.

Now if the ball simply hits the helmet and bounces into the air and it caught by the hand while not in the helmet we have a catch. In that case it would be no different than the ball bouncing off the arm of F2, into the air and being caught in the air.