Hole in outfield fence at the base of the fence.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Boys' H.S. varsity, NFHS Rules; I am the BU.


Top of fifth inning, Home-4, Visitor-0. Lead off batter hits a line shot into the left-center gap that goes all the way to the outfield fence. I have the B/R all of the way. Just as B/R rounds second and starts toward third, F8 raises his hands and the PU calls (loud enough for the players near home plate could hear) out "TIME" (I did not hear the PU nor did I see F8 raise his hands because I was concentrating on the B/R); THEN F8 picks up the ball and the fun begins. V's HC (was coaching from the third base coaching box) yells to his B/R to keep running, which he does all the way around third base(yes, he did touch third base) and onto home plate, and then into the dugout.

We ruled that the instant the PU called "time" everything stops. We put the B/R on second base and resumed play with the next batter up to bat.

To be honest, I cannot remember the last time I had a ball get stuck under an outfield fence, in fact, I do not think I have ever had it happen to me. It is my thinking that F8's raising his hand does not stop play and that we should have let B/R complete his running (touching third and home plate), and then "time" should have been called and BU go out to the fence and make a ruling. If the ball is truely out of play then the B/R can be put back on second base, and if the ball is not out of play then the defensive team is out of luck. If we didn't allow the play to continue, the defense would raise their hands to force the umpires to call time and then beforced to award only two bases from the TOP.

MTD, Sr.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Boys' H.S. varsity, NFHS Rules; I am the BU.


Top of fifth inning, Home-4, Visitor-0. Lead off batter hits a line shot into the left-center gap that goes all the way to the outfield fence. I have the B/R all of the way. Just as B/R rounds second and starts toward third, F8 raises his hands and the PU calls (loud enough for the players near home plate could hear) out "TIME" (I did not hear the PU nor did I see F8 raise his hands because I was concentrating on the B/R); THEN F8 picks up the ball and the fun begins. V's HC (was coaching from the third base coaching box) yells to his B/R to keep running, which he does all the way around third base(yes, he did touch third base) and onto home plate, and then into the dugout.

We ruled that the instant the PU called "time" everything stops. We put the B/R on second base and resumed play with the next batter up to bat.

To be honest, I cannot remember the last time I had a ball get stuck under an outfield fence, in fact, I do not think I have ever had it happen to me. It is my thinking that F8's raising his hand does not stop play and that we should have let B/R complete his running (touching third and home plate), and then "time" should have been called and BU go out to the fence and make a ruling. If the ball is truely out of play then the B/R can be put back on second base, and if the ball is not out of play then the defensive team is out of luck. If we didn't allow the play to continue, the defense would raise their hands to force the umpires to call time and then beforced to award only two bases from the TOP.

MTD, Sr.

We do not call time until the ball is seen out of play or until an umpire goes out and verifies it is out of play. It's live, the runners run, and if the ball is laying there, the defense is out of luck.

[nopachunts]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

We do not call time until the ball is seen out of play or until an umpire goes out and verifies it is out of play. It's live, the runners run, and if the ball is laying there, the defense is out of luck.

During plate meeting after the Home HC takes us around the field, if there is any mention of something being less than tight all the way around, I tell both coaches if a ball becomes stuck or under any fence or gate, for the fielder to hold up both arms, let it lay, and we will check it out. If they play it, the offense gets all they can.

YMMV, but it usually does the trick.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by nopachunts

During plate meeting after the Home HC takes us around the field, if there is any mention of something being less than tight all the way around, I tell both coaches if a ball becomes stuck or under any fence or gate, for the fielder to hold up both arms, let it lay, and we will check it out. If they play it, the offense gets all they can.

YMMV, but it usually does the trick.

We have one coach who likes to go into this long discussion about a tarp laying up against the fence. He always says "if your players play it, the ball will stay live." One day when I saw the coach, I brought up the tarp and mentioned that it's the status of the ball that determines whether it's out or not. If I see the ball disappear into the tarp, I'm killing it whether the player is digging or not. Now, if I can't make a determination and the player gets it out without me seeing it lodged, yes, I will keep it live, but that's different.

[Klokard]

From the time the F8 threw his hands up the BR and all runners should continue running. BU goes out and checks status of ball. If found to be lodged or out of play, runners return. If ball is found to be in play OR reachable (dependant on MATP) runners get what they can. If fielder throws up hands and continues digging, continue out but allow runners to continue. I have actually had an F7 do this in a game on a field that had shrubery on fence. While hussling out there, I saw him try and stuff the ball back into the shrubs.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I am going to take some blame here even though I was the BU in the OP. Normally, whether I am the PU or the BU, when this type of situation is discussed at the pre-game meeting I always remind the coaches to tell their players to raise their hands and to not touch the ball until an umpire goes out and inspects the situation because if they pick up the ball we will consider it still in play, and last night I just forgot to inject my two cents of information into the pre-game meeting.

MTD, Sr.

[Mrumpiresir]

I'm curious as to why you put the runner on second base. The fielder duped the umpires into killing the ball when it should have remained live. The OP said the runner was rounding second and heading for third when time was called. I think it would be appropriate to award the runner the bases he would have attained, in the umpires judgement, if time had not been called. No way I'm letting the defense gain an advantage in this scenario.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mrumpiresir

I'm curious as to why you put the runner on second base. The fielder duped the umpires into killing the ball when it should have remained live. The OP said the runner was rounding second and heading for third when time was called. I think it would be appropriate to award the runner the bases he would have attained, in the umpires judgement, if time had not been called. No way I'm letting the defense gain an advantage in this scenario.

IF the umpires were duped, then I agree (under FED rules and the CS&FP handbook). IT's not clear to me whether the umpires decided they were duped or that the ball had gone out of play and was then retrieved.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by Mrumpiresir

I'm curious as to why you put the runner on second base. The fielder duped the umpires into killing the ball when it should have remained live. The OP said the runner was rounding second and heading for third when time was called. I think it would be appropriate to award the runner the bases he would have attained, in the umpires judgement, if time had not been called. No way I'm letting the defense gain an advantage in this scenario.

Because PU killed (and kicked) it when he called time. Unless you want to rely on 9.01(c), the rules don't support a 3-base (or more) award.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Because PU killed (and kicked) it when he called time. Unless you want to rely on 9.01(c), the rules don't support a 3-base (or more) award.

Dash: FED rules permit umpires to rectify their own errors that put one team at a disadvantage.

Under OBR, I'd have PU eat his time call and tell the O-coach why his runner has to return to 2B.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

Because PU killed (and kicked) it when he called time. Unless you want to rely on 9.01(c), the rules don't support a 3-base (or more) award.

FED rules have the "correct a situation where a team was disadvataged when an umpire's decision was reversed" rule.

[ozzy6900]

Not much you can do here, F8 fooled the umpire. I agree with the placement of the BR on 2nd base as the umpire was fooled into calling TIME with the assumption of the ball going out of play. Hope the umpire learned a lesson here!

[yawetag]

Originally Posted by Klokard

If ball is found to be in play OR reachable (dependant on MATP) runners get what they can.

I'm not sure what MATP means, so it might change my answer, but I disagree with "reachable" (bolding mine):

8-3-3c: two bases if a fair batted or thrown ball becomes dead because of bouncing over or passing through a fence...

Baserunning Awards Table - Two Bases - 1: Fa¡r batted ball bounces over, through, goes under, lodges ¡n or under fence

Amazingly, I can't find a Case Play for a ball rolling through a fence.

[Mrumpiresir]

8-3-3c does not apply here because the ball never passed under or through or over a fence. I am thinking if we can use judgement as to where to place a runner if spectator interference occurs, why couldn't we award bases for a fielder successfully duping the umpires? Could this be a legitimate use of 9.01(c)?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

IF the umpires were duped, then I agree (under FED rules and the CS&FP handbook). IT's not clear to me whether the umpires decided they were duped or that the ball had gone out of play and was then retrieved.

Bob:

We don't think we were duped. The Home-AD told me after the game, that the player raised his hands because the ball went through a hole at the base of the fence thinking that by raising his hands he was telling the umpires that the ball was out of play. He then reached through the ball to retreive the ball thinking that the ball was dead, which we know that while it is dead, it really isn't dead until the BU goes out and inspects the situation. I honestly do not think the player was trying to dupe anybody. We, as an unpiring crew, screwed the pooch on this play.

MTD, Sr.