Dead ball appeal

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I'm going to utilize the most equivalent rule in the book to determine how to gauge when the baserunning is complete; the "abandonment" rule. In both NFHS and ASA, that means the runner has entered dead ball territory (and includes the batter-runner on a hit-by-pitch); prior to that, the runner may still return to complete baserunning.

Unless it is very obvious the runner is done, I agree entering DBT would be the definitive line of making that determination.

As to the alternate play added in, it could be me, but I'm just not ever granting time for a runner to dust off. I see no legitimate reason why the runner cannot do that while maintaining contact with the base with the ball remaining live. I'm surely not killing it so a runner can safely return after missing a base without violating the lookback rule or be subject to appeal for missing; I believe that gives an unintended advantage to the offense.

Remember, the discussion is based upon the ball becoming dead, so there is no reason to grant time.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

Posted on a baseball forum, but regarding a softball game. Rule set not specified.

Bases loaded, batter hit by pitch. Runner from 3rd advances home and steps over the plate and is headed for dugout. Defensive coach yells at catcher, "TAG HER, SHE MISSED THE PLATE!". Runner now turns to run back and touch the base and is tagged by the catcher.

Being that its on a baseball board have gotten everything from the ball has to be live to cant be appealed until the runner enters the dugout. Brings up some questions and seems it could depend on rule set.

1. When can the defense make the dead ball appeal? Must they wait until the runner physically enters the dugout? NFHS 2-3-2 says the defense must wait to appeal until the runner has completed their base running responsibilities if the ball has gone out of play. The ball has not gone out of play in this situation. ASA in the rule supplements appears to indicate it is umpire judgement as to when the runner has completed their responsibilities. If its obvious the runner was not returning to touch until the defensive coach yelled, have they completed their base running responsibilities and can the defense make the dead ball appeal? I would consider her to have completed her running obligations that the moment she made no attempt to return and touch the plate. While not the same, there is a crossover reference to this in the rules/casebook. In the reference, a player misses the plate on what is presumed to be a tag play at the plate. The umpire is instructed to withhold a call until it can be determined if either the defense, or the offense makes an attempt to tag (defense), or return (offense). If neither happens the ruling to signal safe. In some ways, the same situation applies. The runner has not made an attempt to return, thus indicating to everyone the runner is not going to return. What messes this up is the defensive coach yelling. My take on this is once I have made my mind up on the play, the play is dead and we go to an appeal stage. These really are HTBT situations to get the real time timing down.

2. NFHS allows for coaches to make appeals, ASA must be a player. Would you consider the coach yelling, "Tag her, she missed the plate!" to be a valid appeal, or just something he yelled to the catcher?

Since I have no ability to tag the runner, to me that is an instruction to the catcher, not an appeal to an umpire that the base was missed.

Response in Red

[jmkupka]

OK, maybe this'll clear it for me...

BR misses 1B, comes into 2B standing up. Stands still.
BR: "Blue, time?"
Umpire:"Time!"
BR:"Thank you." Goes back to touch 1B, then returns to 2B.

If he tried to return before calling time, his actions would alert F9 to throw to F3.
By calling time, he can retouch at his leisure?

Feel free to call me out on my denseness...

[Tru_in_Blu]

For the first part of this string, I'm in agreement with the abandonment argument as presented by Steve. Similar to an uncaught third strike, the B/R can take any weird path to first base provided s/he hasn't entered DBT.

As far as the tangential scenario that was proposed, let's assume for a moment that this is slow pitch. BU is watching the B/R and sees the miss of first base as the runner slides safely into second base. At this point, PU doesn't realize that the runner missed the base. He concludes playing action is over and simply calls "time". Or, there may have been a collision on a slide at second where the runner or a defender becomes injured. The BU likely will call time in that case.

So once time is called, whether rightly or wrongly, are we going to allow the runner to return to 1B to tag it and return to 2B? During a dead ball or time out period?

I think I'm not and if the defense appeals prior to the next pitch, I'll call an out. Is that wrong? If asked about it by the offensive coach, I'll say the runner should have touched it originally and can't take advantage of re-tagging during a time out.