Dead ball appeal

[RKBUmp]

Posted on a baseball forum, but regarding a softball game. Rule set not specified.

Bases loaded, batter hit by pitch. Runner from 3rd advances home and steps over the plate and is headed for dugout. Defensive coach yells at catcher, "TAG HER, SHE MISSED THE PLATE!". Runner now turns to run back and touch the base and is tagged by the catcher.

Being that its on a baseball board have gotten everything from the ball has to be live to cant be appealed until the runner enters the dugout. Brings up some questions and seems it could depend on rule set.

1. When can the defense make the dead ball appeal? Must they wait until the runner physically enters the dugout? NFHS 2-3-2 says the defense must wait to appeal until the runner has completed their base running responsibilities if the ball has gone out of play. The ball has not gone out of play in this situation. ASA in the rule supplements appears to indicate it is umpire judgement as to when the runner has completed their responsibilities. If its obvious the runner was not returning to touch until the defensive coach yelled, have they completed their base running responsibilities and can the defense make the dead ball appeal?

2. NFHS allows for coaches to make appeals, ASA must be a player. Would you consider the coach yelling, "Tag her, she missed the plate!" to be a valid appeal, or just something he yelled to the catcher?

[jmkupka]

1.On a dead ball, the runner can't go back to retouch if she's on a base beyond the one missed when the ball's dead.
In this case, I consider the dugout to be "the base beyond", and until she enters, she can try to beat the catcher back to the plate.

2. In a live ball appeal, if F2 reacts to the coach's yelling, and applies the tag or touches the plate, I'd consider that a valid appeal. If she wanders across & happens to touch HP, nothing... Don't know the fed rule on dead ball appeals (regarding non-players).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by RKBUmp

2. NFHS allows for coaches to make appeals, ASA must be a player. Would you consider the coach yelling, "Tag her, she missed the plate!" to be a valid appeal, or just something he yelled to the catcher?

No, it was a simple direction to his catcher.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

No, it was a simple direction to his catcher.

A NFHS coach might have an legit point as "she missed the plate" being an appeal.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

1.On a dead ball, the runner can't go back to retouch if she's on a base beyond the one missed when the ball's dead.
In this case, I consider the dugout to be "the base beyond", and until she enters, she can try to beat the catcher back to the plate.

Speaking ASA, this is not true.

The only time a runner cannot return to touch a missed base or a base left too soon, is when they have touched or gone beyond the next awarded base when the ball has been blocked or overthrown.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

In this case, I consider the dugout to be "the base beyond", and until she enters, she can try to beat the catcher back to the plate.

Rule cite ?

[jmkupka]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Speaking ASA, this is not true.

The only time a runner cannot return to touch a missed base or a base left too soon, is when they have touched or gone beyond the next awarded base when the ball has been blocked or overthrown.

I started a thread about this before (still not crystal clear on it apparently)...

B/R hits for a double. Misses 1B along the way. Comes in to 2B sliding, asks for time to brush off (standing on the base), time is called. He may now trot back to 1B, then back to 2B?



The order of the sentences in red seem to indicate that is so:

From the 2013 Umpire Clinic Guide:

2. Dead. The dead ball appeal may be made:

a) Once all runners have completed their advancement and time has been called. Runners must be given ample opportunity, in the umpire’s judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities. Any infielder, with or without the ball, may make a verbal appeal on a runner missing a base or leaving a base too soon on a caught fly ball. The pitcher and the catcher are considered infielders for the appeal process. The appropriate umpire should then make a decision on the play.

[josephrt1]

I have 2 comments to the original post.

In question 1, the poster asks; "When can the defense make the dead ball appeal?" To make a dead ball appeal the ball has to be dead. Is this case the ball was not dead and as described, the fielder made a live ball appeal. When the catcher tagged her as described in this post, I would call an out for the following reason:

RS 1, Section I. "Plate and tag missed. If a runner misses home plate and the catcher misses the tag, the umpire should hesitate slightly. If no tag is made, the umpire should call the runner safe. If an appeal play is made by tagging the runner or home plate, the umpire should then render a decision."

The plate was missed, why would the fielder have to wait and allow her to "complete her base running responsibilities". She missed the base, ball is live, we have a tag, I have an OUT.

[RKBUmp]

The ball was dead, the batter was hit by a pitch. Also, in all cases in the rule book and case plays, when it speaks of allowing time for the runners to complete their base running requirements, they are all referencing running violations that occurred while the ball was live.

The NFHS rule I cited only states time must be given to complete base running requirements if the ball went out of play. The ball has not gone out of play in the play presented.

[jmkupka]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Rule cite ?

I got nothin (I'm away from my books).

The alternative?

Dead ball, runner trots home, misses HP, is one step past.
DC: "She missed it!"
PU: "Out!"

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

I started a thread about this before (still not crystal clear on it apparently)...

B/R hits for a double. Misses 1B along the way. Comes in to 2B sliding, asks for time to brush off (standing on the base), time is called. He may now trot back to 1B, then back to 2B?

Absolutely.

As previously noted, the inability to return after reaching or passing the next awarded base on an overthrow or blocked ball, is dictated by the "awarding" of bases after those specific events which determine the status of the ball/play.

This is why when a live ball is blocked or enters DBT, the umpire should hesitate to determine the runner's actions. Once the umpire judges the player is satisfied with their running duties, then the umpire should announce the award.

NOTE: Because the post (#2) by jmkupka to which I responded was based on a dead ball appeal, that is the manner in which I continued the conversation. Otherwise,I would not grant time for the purpose of preventing the defense from making an appeal on a runner

[jmkupka]

I can accept that...

I just see a situation where:
Above-mentioned runner asks for time (standing on 2B).
Time's granted.
As DC starts to dead-ball appeal (maybe with "hey blue, can I appeal something?"), runner leaves 2B to go touch 1B.
I hold my hand out, saying, "hold up coach, can't take that appeal yet"

I guess the timing of these things just feels awkward...

[Andy]

My opinion.....

In the scenario posted, the batter is awarded first base due to the HBP, the runner on third is forced to home as the bases are loaded.

Once a runner passes a base, s/he is considered to have touched that base for purposes of an appeal. My thought would be that if s/he did not show any inclination to turn around and touch the plate that was missed, s/he has (in his/her mind) completed the base running duties and is subject to appeal.

If it is clear to me that the runner did not react until the coach yelled at the catcher, then I would definitely consider the runner to have completed the base running duties. In NFHS play, the statement from the coach would be a valid dead ball appeal. In ASA play, it would not be a valid appeal, but once the catcher made a move to tag the runner, I would consider that a valid appeal as I would know what the catcher's intent was because of the instructions from the coach.

[AtlUmpSteve]

I'm going to utilize the most equivalent rule in the book to determine how to gauge when the baserunning is complete; the "abandonment" rule. In both NFHS and ASA, that means the runner has entered dead ball territory (and includes the batter-runner on a hit-by-pitch); prior to that, the runner may still return to complete baserunning.

As to the alternate play added in, it could be me, but I'm just not ever granting time for a runner to dust off. I see no legitimate reason why the runner cannot do that while maintaining contact with the base with the ball remaining live. I'm surely not killing it so a runner can safely return after missing a base without violating the lookback rule or be subject to appeal for missing; I believe that gives an unintended advantage to the offense.

[josephrt1]

There's a couple of cases being discussed simultaneously here. I want to add my 2 cents on some of the issues:

1. Yes, the first case was a dead ball because it was a HBP, not a ball 4. My mistake.

2. On the case about a runner asking for time then going back to touch 1st and return to 2nd base under the dead ball situation. How would you let that happen? If a coach came out fo the dugout and asked for time while a situation was still developing, (like a runner off base, or me as ump waiting to see if a batter-runner continues on to 2nd, etc) I would not grant the coach time out until i was sure play was done. Same with your runner on 2nd.

In your case with a runner on 2nd base calling time, I would not grant it immediately (provided i knew he had missed 1st). If he/she makes no attempt to return to tag the base missed, I would then allow time. If during the time out he goes back to 1st and then returns to 2nd, that would not count as tagging a missed base. Time was out. If i get an appeal I would call the out even if they claimed they went back and tagged the base.
a. I allowed play to finish before calling time and up to that point there was no effort to return to the missed base.
b. this is not a situation where time was a result of the ball going out of play before the player had the opportunity to correct the missed base.

Even if the base runner asked for time and i granted it, I would not count leaving the base and tagging 1st as correcting the missed base.

One wrinkle could be that if ump calls time for some other reason and runner was still in motion and i missed it, i'd probably have to allow it. But I'd be hard pressed to allow it if the runner or the coach calls time and then say go back and touch 1st. I think i still allow the appeal because they should have done that under the live ball. Ball was still in play. They asked for time, it wasn't caused by the situation.