Play on or dead ball

[chapmaja]

I had this situation Wednesday (NFHS JV). Team is up about 15 in the second inning. Bases loaded, 1 out. Batter hits a hard ground ball that goes directly between F3 and F4 (Equal distance to each). F3 is playing in front of the baseline, while F4 is behind the baseline. The ball was hit so hard that neither defense player would have an opportunity to make a play. The ball however hit the runner as she tried to advance from 1b to 2b.

We both went up with a dead ball interference call, but I am not questioning it.

I understand the rule is the ball is dead if it hits a runner and has not yet passed a defensive player, or has passed a defensive player and another had an opportunity to make an out.

The question really is how to we determine the passed a player portion. In this case the ball split the difference between the two equally. I would guess that this rule really requires judgment regarding who the closest player is to where the ball goes. Am I correct?

The call of out was never question by anyone except myself.

This game was so bad, the home team only had 8 players during warmups. The 9th player arrived shortly before the start. She was a freshman up on the varsity team (which was away that day), who was pulled out of warmups and driven back to the host school to make it a legal lineup to start.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I had this situation Wednesday (NFHS JV). Team is up about 15 in the second inning. Bases loaded, 1 out. Batter hits a hard ground ball that goes directly between F3 and F4 (Equal distance to each). F3 is playing in front of the baseline, while F4 is behind the baseline. The ball was hit so hard that neither defense player would have an opportunity to make a play. The ball however hit the runner as she tried to advance from 1b to 2b.

We both went up with a dead ball interference call, but I am not questioning it.

I understand the rule is the ball is dead if it hits a runner and has not yet passed a defensive player, or has passed a defensive player and another had an opportunity to make an out.

The question really is how to we determine the passed a player portion. In this case the ball split the difference between the two equally. I would guess that this rule really requires judgment regarding who the closest player is to where the ball goes. Am I correct?

The call of out was never question by anyone except myself.

This game was so bad, the home team only had 8 players during warmups. The 9th player arrived shortly before the start. She was a freshman up on the varsity team (which was away that day), who was pulled out of warmups and driven back to the host school to make it a legal lineup to start.

DEAD!! RUNNER OUT!! BATTER ON FIRST!! EVERYBODY GO BACK!

MTD, Sr.

[BretMan]

I'm not surprised that nobody complained. After all, everybody "knows" that anytime a runner gets hit by the ball, the runner is out...right? Well, we umpires know that's not right. I've had some real blowups when the ball did pass a fielder, then hit a runner, and I didn't call her out. Because, everybody knows...

Doesn't FED consider "past the fielder(s)" by drawing a straight line between the two adjacent fielders? On this play you'd draw a line from F3 to F4. If the ball was behind that line, then it was past the fielder(s).

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by BretMan

I'm not surprised that nobody complained. After all, everybody "knows" that anytime a runner gets hit by the ball, the runner is out...right? Well, we umpires know that's not right. I've had some real blowups when the ball did pass a fielder, then hit a runner, and I didn't call her out. Because, everybody knows...

Doesn't FED consider "past the fielder(s)" by drawing a straight line between the two adjacent fielders? On this play you'd draw a line from F3 to F4. If the ball was behind that line, then it was past the fielder(s).

"Doesn't FED consider "past the fielder(s)" by drawing a straight line between the two adjacent fielders?"

This is what I am really wondering. I have never gotten a good explanation of this. Drawing a line would make sense on a play like this. Based on where those two defenders were located, I would say it could have gone either way.

The way the same was going, I am calling the out because we might not get another for awhile.

[Andy]

First of all, let me say that I am absolutely sympathetic to your need to get outs in a game like the one you describe.....

That being said, I read your description of the play as a live ball, play on. From your description, the batted ball passed F3 and F4 (and I'm assuming F9) had no opportunity to make a play.

I've only hear the straight line between two fielders theory used in reference to base umpire positioning and when the BU is considered "behind" the infielders.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by BretMan

Doesn't FED consider "past the fielder(s)" by drawing a straight line between the two adjacent fielders? On this play you'd draw a line from F3 to F4. If the ball was behind that line, then it was past the fielder(s).

Baseball yes. This seems to be about softball. Might be different.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by Andy

First of all, let me say that I am absolutely sympathetic to your need to get outs in a game like the one you describe.....

That being said, I read your description of the play as a live ball, play on. From your description, the batted ball passed F3 and F4 (and I'm assuming F9) had no opportunity to make a play.

I've only hear the straight line between two fielders theory used in reference to base umpire positioning and when the BU is considered "behind" the infielders.

This doesn't matter.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Andy

I've only hear the straight line between two fielders theory used in reference to base umpire positioning and when the BU is considered "behind" the infielders.

This^^^^^^

The rule is that the runner is not out if the batted ball passes a fielder and another fielder does not have an opportunity to make an out. IMO, that would be a fielder in the general vicinity with a possible chance field the batted ball.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

This^^^^^^

The rule is that the runner is not out if the batted ball passes a fielder and another fielder does not have an opportunity to make an out. IMO, that would be a fielder in the general vicinity with a possible chance field the batted ball.

This still brings up of how we interpret the passed an infield. Am I safe in assuming that when F3 is playing in and F4 is playing back, and the ball goes directly between them, that the ball has passed F3, therefore the ball remains live unless F4 (or possibly F9) would have the ability to make an out.

Under this interpretation, I definitely kicked this call with my partner.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

This doesn't matter.

Actually it could have an impact. If this were a line drive, F9 could be playing shallow and have an opportunity to make a play. IIRC the rules does read "no other fielder", not no other infielder.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

This still brings up of how we interpret the passed an infield. Am I safe in assuming that when F3 is playing in and F4 is playing back, and the ball goes directly between them, that the ball has passed F3, therefore the ball remains live unless F4 (or possibly F9) would have the ability to make an out.

Under this interpretation, I definitely kicked this call with my partner.

Pass generally means through or within reach. If there was no possibility for the fielder making a play then it did not pass for purposes of this rule.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Actually it could have an impact. If this were a line drive, F9 could be playing shallow and have an opportunity to make a play. IIRC the rules does read "no other fielder", not no other infielder.

Get some more input on this.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Get some more input on this.

Here is a situation that could happen. R2 at second, R1 at first. R2 has been taking a big lead off the base, so F8 is coming in behind the runner, trying to pick off R2 as she returns to the base. When she goes back she only goes slightly onto the outfield grass. B3 hits a line drive which is passes F6 (who is in front of the baseline, but hits R2 going from second to third. Had the ball not hit R2, it would have gone right to F8, who would have had a very possible throw to second for a force, or throw to first for the out. Are you saying that because F8 is not an infielder, we ignore this, even though the rule book is clear "... or if it passes an infielder and any fielder has an opportunity to make an out."

Today I had an outfielder make a force out at second base, and had an out for a runner hit by a line drive between first and second (F4 could possibly have made a play, as the ball was close to where she could have reached.)

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Here is a situation that could happen. R2 at second, R1 at first. R2 has been taking a big lead off the base, so F8 is coming in behind the runner, trying to pick off R2 as she returns to the base. When she goes back she only goes slightly onto the outfield grass. B3 hits a line drive which is passes F6 (who is in front of the baseline, but hits R2 going from second to third. Had the ball not hit R2, it would have gone right to F8, who would have had a very possible throw to second for a force, or throw to first for the out. Are you saying that because F8 is not an infielder, we ignore this, even though the rule book is clear "... or if it passes an infielder and any fielder has an opportunity to make an out."

If that happens you have a really stupid defensive alignment. Don't hold your breath waiting for it to happen.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

This still brings up of how we interpret the passed an infield. Am I safe in assuming that when F3 is playing in and F4 is playing back, and the ball goes directly between them, that the ball has passed F3, therefore the ball remains live unless F4 (or possibly F9) would have the ability to make an out.

Under this interpretation, I definitely kicked this call with my partner.

I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill by looking for specifics to guide your judgment. You seem to be searching for someone to offer a specific distance or circumstance and I don't believe you are going to get that or that is even necessary.

As Rich and I have noted, it is your judgment as to whether a player may have had the opportunity to make a play on the batted ball. Just the ability to get to the ball, not an absolute execution of an out.