The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Softball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Apr 23, 2016, 07:43pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 22
Courtesy runner in ITB

NFHS...
..."The pitcher or catcher must bat and reach base legally...or...earn their way on base..in order to be eligible for a courtesy runner.."

How is "earned" defined?

ITB..
Runner placed on 2nd is the catcher of record...Can she have a courtesy runner? Obviously she didn't bat...
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Apr 23, 2016, 07:53pm
High Five Master
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Southwest Missouri
Posts: 669
Yes. She is offered the courtesy in attempt to avoid injury and to speed up game in getting her gear on. I would just announce the CR after verifying the catcher was the last out of the previous inning.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Apr 23, 2016, 09:34pm
Never Stop Learning
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 518
First of all NFHS does not have a tie breaker rule. It does have the option of State adoption of one (4-2-6). Here we use the ASA tie breaker rule that states that a substitute may be inserted for the runner (ASA RS #54). In our case no, she can't have a courtesy runner as she did not earn her way on base. She was put there by rule to help score runs and get the game over. Earning her way on base simply means she would have to bat and reach base by the actions of her time at bat. Also read (ASA 8-10-A1) Which states that a courtesy runner can be used for the pitcher and/or the catcher providing the pitcher or catcher bats for themselves and reaches base safely.

Last edited by Ed Maeder; Sat Apr 23, 2016 at 09:55pm.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat Apr 23, 2016, 09:53pm
Administrator
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Toledo, Ohio, U.S.A.
Posts: 8,044
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Maeder View Post
First of all NFHS does not have a tie breaker rule. It does have the option of State adoption of one (4-2-6). Here we use the ASA tie breaker rule that states that a substitute may be inserted for the runner (ASA RS #54). In our case no, she can't have a courtesy runner as she did not earn her way on base. She was put there by rule to help score runs and get the game over. Earning her way on base simply means she would have to bat and reach base by the actions of her time at bat. Also read (ASA 8-10-A1)

What page in the 2016 ASA Rules Book is RS #54?

MTD, Sr.
__________________
Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Trumbull Co. (Warren, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Wood Co. (Bowling Green, Ohio) Bkb. Off. Assn.
Ohio Assn. of Basketball Officials
International Assn. of Approved Bkb. Officials
Ohio High School Athletic Association
Toledo, Ohio
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sat Apr 23, 2016, 09:54pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Woodstock, GA; Atlanta area
Posts: 2,822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Maeder View Post
First of all NFHS does not have a tie breaker rule. It does have the option of State adoption of one (4-2-6). Here we use the ASA tie breaker rule that states that a substitute may be inserted for the runner (ASA RS #54). In our case no, she can't have a courtesy runner as she did not earn her way on base. She was put there by rule to help score runs and get the game over. Earning her way on base simply means she would have to bat and reach base by the actions of her time at bat.
Sorry, no. That is incorrect, violates an approved ruling in both ASA and NFHS, and is the extension of a myth that is an incorrect application.

Every person in the lineup earns their way to be the tiebreaker runner in the exact same way; by being the listed last (9th) batter in any tie-break inning. It doesn't matter what position they play; they earn that right by being the last batter; or the person listed above the first batter to bat in that inning. If that person is the pitcher or catcher for the last out in the prior half inning, she is eligible for a courtesy runner.

The rule cited above exists to keep the DP, who is playing offense for the FLEX pitcher or catcher, from being subbed for by that player, and THEN thinking they can get a courtesy runner by the sub. NOT what was asked in this thread.
__________________
Steve
ASA/ISF/NCAA/NFHS/PGF
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sat Apr 23, 2016, 10:02pm
Never Stop Learning
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 518
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark t. Denucci, sr. View Post
what page in the 2016 asa rules book is rs #54?

Mtd, sr.
152
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sat Apr 23, 2016, 10:06pm
Never Stop Learning
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 518
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve View Post
Sorry, no. That is incorrect, violates an approved ruling in both ASA and NFHS, and is the extension of a myth that is an incorrect application.

Every person in the lineup earns their way to be the tiebreaker runner in the exact same way; by being the listed last (9th) batter in any tie-break inning. It doesn't matter what position they play; they earn that right by being the last batter; or the person listed above the first batter to bat in that inning. If that person is the pitcher or catcher for the last out in the prior half inning, she is eligible for a courtesy runner.

The rule cited above exists to keep the DP, who is playing offense for the FLEX pitcher or catcher, from being subbed for by that player, and THEN thinking they can get a courtesy runner by the sub. NOT what was asked in this thread.
I appreciate your experience, but could you please show me the approved ruling in NFHS and ASA.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 24, 2016, 06:28am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,340
From the May 2014 ASA plays and clarifications.

Play: In the top of the 8th inning, F2, who was the last batter to complete their turn at bat, is placed on 2B. The offense wants to put a Courtesy Runner in to run for F2. The umpires do not allow this because F2 did not bat and reach base safely.
Ruling: The umpires should have allowed F2 to have a Courtesy Runner. As long as F1 and/or F2 batted for themselves in the inning prior to the tie breaker and were the last to complete their turn at bat, they have earned the right to be put on 2B, therefore they can have a Courtesy Runner. Rule 8 Section 10A
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 24, 2016, 09:55am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Maeder View Post
I appreciate your experience, but could you please show me the approved ruling in NFHS and ASA.
Can you show where it is not approved?
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 24, 2016, 01:39pm
Never Stop Learning
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 518
Thanks a lot guys. I stand corrected. It was in the ASA plays and clarifications in April 2014. I will not make that mistake again. This is why I use this site to learn and progress.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 24, 2016, 01:57pm
Never Stop Learning
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 518
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA View Post
Can you show where it is not approved?
I thought I had.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 24, 2016, 04:48pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Woodstock, GA; Atlanta area
Posts: 2,822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Maeder View Post
Thanks a lot guys. I stand corrected. It was in the ASA plays and clarifications in April 2014. I will not make that mistake again. This is why I use this site to learn and progress.
No problem. None of us is infallible, so you have every right to ask us to justify the answer when it conflicts with what you think you know.
__________________
Steve
ASA/ISF/NCAA/NFHS/PGF
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 24, 2016, 04:49pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: USA
Posts: 14,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Maeder View Post
I thought I had.
But your citation does not state that a pitcher or catcher cannot have a CR as the runner placed on 2nd base for the tie breaker. I was under the impression that was the question in the OP
__________________
The bat issue in softball is as much about liability, insurance and litigation as it is about competition, inflated egos and softball.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Sun Apr 24, 2016, 06:31pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Twin Cities MN
Posts: 8,154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed Maeder View Post
...Earning her way on base simply means she would have to bat and reach base by the actions of her time at bat....
Well, she DID reach base by the actions of her time at bat... it just took an intervening half inning for her to get there!
__________________
Tom
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 25, 2016, 08:34am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Land Of The Free and The Home Of The Brave (MD/DE)
Posts: 6,425
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef View Post
the last out of the previous inning.
No, the batter scheduled to bat last in this inning.
__________________
Officiating takes more than OJT.
It's not our jobs to invent rulings to fit our personal idea of what should and should not be.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Courtesy runner; unreported sub runner Tru_in_Blu Softball 4 Fri Jan 09, 2015 05:49pm
ITB Courtesy Runner jmkupka Softball 6 Tue Oct 21, 2014 09:49am
Courtesy Runner sprivitor Softball 15 Thu Jun 05, 2008 03:52pm
Pinch runner for a courtesy runner? jwwashburn Softball 17 Wed May 02, 2007 01:43pm
Courtesy Runner Dukat Softball 6 Mon Nov 17, 2003 05:22pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:49am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1