Help from my Partner

[jmkupka]

[QUOTE=Nope, changing the count, too; I know I called that pitch a strike, but my base umpire says it should be a ball from where he's standing! Yeah, we can make that foul ball fair, now, too.[/QUOTE]

Partner told me of an occasion where he was PU, line drive over F3's head, curving foul... as it passes over F3, BU in "B" distinctly hears the ball tic off her mitt (well inside fair territory). PU does not. Calls "Foul ball". (More senior) BU insists this can be corrected, and places runner and B/R where he thinks they should be.
Your thoughts?

[Andy]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

Partner told me of an occasion where he was PU, line drive over F3's head, curving foul... as it passes over F3, BU in "B" distinctly hears the ball tic off her mitt (well inside fair territory). PU does not. Calls "Foul ball". (More senior) BU insists this can be corrected, and places runner and B/R where he thinks they should be.
Your thoughts?

Can it be? Yes, but only if PU requests the information from the BU.

Should it be? No

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Andy

Can it be? Yes, but only if PU requests the information from the BU.

Should it be? No

Cannot be changed in NCAA; by rule, once called foul, it must remain foul no matter what.

In my opinion, the only times anyone should consider that correction in a rule set that allows it is if the ball hits the base or foul pole, and is fair by rule (as opposed to judgment). Then it is a rule misapplication, which should be corrected.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

Cannot be changed in NCAA; by rule, once called foul, it must remain foul no matter what.

In my opinion, the only times anyone should consider that correction in a rule set that allows it is if the ball hits the base or foul pole, and is fair by rule (as opposed to judgment). Then it is a rule misapplication, which should be corrected.

I don't think I understand the distinction. Isn't a ball which hits a fielders glove in flight in fair territory fair by rule? What makes thinking it didn't hit the base an error of rule but thinking it didn't hit the glove an error of judgment.

[jmkupka]

A ball hitting a base (or pole), and ricocheting foul could (incorrectly) be called foul; this can be corrected.
PU not hearing the ball skip off F3's mitt, gotta live with that one...

[youngump]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

A ball hitting a base (or pole), and ricocheting foul could (incorrectly) be called foul; this can be corrected.
PU not hearing the ball skip off F3's mitt, gotta live with that one...

Yes, I read what Steve wrote. I'm asking for the why behind it. Is it a matter of obviousness or is it a matter of the umpire believing the wrong rule or what? E.g., if it hits the mitt and I call it foul because I misunderstood the rule can I fix it?

[AtlUmpSteve]

If the PU hears/knows it hit the mitt, and knows that contact was over fair territory, and calls it foul; and when questioned by a coach admits all of the above, then it would be a misapplied rule that, on protest, would be changed by a UIC. Along those lines, then you should overturn your call, and apply a "jeopardy" decision on where to place runners. And in many, if not most cases, no one will agree with those decisions.

But to apply the same deal with a base umpire hears the contact, and the plate umpire somehow knows the contact he didn't see or hear was over fair territory?? It better be one of those cases where the only person in the park that doesn't know it was touched over fair is the plate umpire before you change that one. I mean, REALLY obvious to everyone that the change is "getting it right", because you may well have to eat a lot of crap and/or eject a coach over the overturn.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

A ball hitting a base (or pole), and ricocheting foul could (incorrectly) be called foul; this can be corrected.
PU not hearing the ball skip off F3's mitt, gotta live with that one...

I had this a couple years ago. R1 on 1st, Ball is hit with a ton of spin near first base. F3 attempts to make a play on the ball and it hits off the glove in fair territory before rolling foul in front of 1st base. My PU does not make a call, F3 picks up the ball and tags B2 coming down the line. R1 thinks the ball is foul and comes back to first. . After the tag, F3 goes over and tags R1, who is still standing on 1b.

After all of this happens, the PU finally calls foul ball. What the heck do we do now? The foul ball call was not made until all that action happened.

What we did was get together and discuss it. We ended up ruling the ball fair, with B2 out on the tag and R1 safe at first (force was removed when B2 was tagged). The reason we went with this call was that I was sure the entire playing action had finished prior to the ball's position being determined by the plate umpire.

In all of that, the only argument was from the defensive coach, who wanted a double play called for the tag on R1.

[Andy]

Here is the situation I had in an ASA Qualifier a few years ago. I am the tournament UIC and saw this play.

Three umpire crew, no runners on base. F5 is playing up anticipating a bunt.
Batter swings and hits a ground ball at F5, she reaches down to field it, ball goes through her legs and rolls foul prior to reaching third base. PU calls FOUL. Offensive coach comes out and says that F5 touched the ball in fair territory so it should be a fair ball, requests PU ask his partners for help. PU gets crew together, U3 tells PU that the ball was touched by F5 over fair territory. PU reverses call and awards batter first base.

Defensive coach wants to protest the changing of the call from foul to fair, I am called to the field. After conferring with the crew to determine what happened and exactly what was called, I inform the coach that there is nothing to protest as the PU simply reversed his judgement call after seeking input from partners.

During the post game, I informed PU that he should have politely declined the initial request to get help as he was sure that the ball was not touched and was foul.