Dead Ball or Out?

[jmkupka]

I guess I'll cite 7.4.I...

This is really the first time I've ever seen the distinction made between batter (or BR) contacting the ball, versus ball contacting the batter, while at least one foot is still in the box.

The area in and around the BB in yesterday's games was like a sandy beach, and more than one bunted ball died directly where it hit the ground. And more than one batter contacted that fair batted ball on their first step, with their back foot still in the BB.

So my calls of "foul ball, foot still in the box" were incorrect in these cases?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

I guess I'll cite 7.4.I...

This is really the first time I've ever seen the distinction made between batter (or BR) contacting the ball, versus ball contacting the batter, while at least one foot is still in the box.

The area in and around the BB in yesterday's games was like a sandy beach, and more than one bunted ball died directly where it hit the ground. And more than one batter contacted that fair batted ball on their first step, with their back foot still in the BB.

So my calls of "foul ball, foot still in the box" were incorrect in these cases?

That would be 7.4.J and refers to the batter, not a batter runner. It also clearly states (as Steve implied) that the ball hits the batter or any part of the batter's person or clothing. This rule is necessary to protect the batter being hit with a batted ball in the portion of the BB that is in fair territory.

Now go to 8.2.F.4. Did the BR make contact with a fair batted ball? According to the OP, that is what happened.

[jmkupka]

Wow... cannot believe I was falling for a "myth" all this time...

A current thread "Batted ball hits runner....or maybe not!" has a related thread down at the bottom, that deals with this exact play.

From 2003.

Not that that's relevant, but it's how long I've been misapplying this rule. I owe a lot of defenses a lot of outs.

BTW, I have a lot of umpires in my assoc. to educate as well...

[tcannizzo]

I am also in the camp of the "newly enlightened".

Not that my memory is that great, but I don't recall ever seeing an umpire call a batter-runner out for contacting a ball while in the batter's box in fair territory; because sure as hell, there would be a coach wanting the explanation. Similarly, I don't ever recall a conversation about this topic with other umpires until seeing it here now (something that I would remember and have learned from).

It dawns on me how many other umpires are potentially misapplying this rule when they say something like "...int the box" (a phrase that I stopped using some time ago. But if one were to use a phrase, it would be better if it was something like "FOUL!, the ball hit the batter".

[tcannizzo]

Clarification(s) please.
7.4.J refers to a pitched ball only, no? Would have no bearing on a batted ball.

8.2.F.4 seems to make ANY contact with B-R in fair territory an Out (no reference to batter's box).

BATTER-RUNNER: A player who has completed a turn at bat but has not yet been put out or reached first base.

Now "completed a turn at bat" implies that the ball has been put in play.
So, how can a player remain B after completing a turn at bat? Wouldn't this immediately change the status to BR? Of course, this would result in ANY contact with a batted ball an out (8.2.F.4), meaning you could never (or damn near) have a foul ball, which of course makes no sense.

I can easily go along with an interpretation applying the logic behind RS 24 Hitting the ball a second time, it makes sense. But I would be much more comfortable with something specific in the book to cover this.

The way I am reading the book, there are too many contradictions.
Help get me untangled please.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Clarificication(s) please.
7.4.J refers to a pitched ball only, no? Would have no bearing on a batted ball.

"ASA 2015, Page 86:

J. When any part of the batter's person or clothing is hit with a batted ball while the batter is in the batter's box and (FP) has few than two strikes."

Granted the FP notation is incorrect, but it refers to a batted ball.

8.2.F.4 seems to make ANY contact with B-R in fair territory an Out (no reference to batter's box).

BATTER-RUNNER: A player who has completed a turn at bat but has not yet been put out or reached first base.

Now "completed a turn at bat" implies that the ball has been put in play.
So, how can a player remain B after completing a turn at bat? Wouldn't this immediately change the status to BR? Of course, this would result in ANY contact with a batted ball an out (8.2.F.4), meaning you could never (or damn near) have a foul ball, which of course makes no sense.

Overthinking. Read 8.1.A

[EsqUmp]

Common Sense: B lays down a crappy bunt right in front of home plate in fair territory. She knows she dead so she kicks it up the line. She does this while her back foot is still in the box. Are you going to let that go? "I understand your concern coach, but her back foot was still technically in the box." Would you allow to to strike the ball a second time? "I understand why you are upset coach, but her foot was in the box so she can attempt to hit the ball a second time."

[jmkupka]

granted Esq, and in that case I'd even go so far as to cite intent, and not try to rationalize it by using this (I now know nonexistent) rule.

However, many times the bunted ball does contact the BR instantaneously after shooting off the ground (spin, divot, whatever), she can't avoid it, no obvious intent. Back foot still in the box.

But now, my call will be different.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

granted Esq, and in that case I'd even go so far as to cite intent, and not try to rationalize it by using this (I now know nonexistent) rule.

However, many times the bunted ball does contact the BR instantaneously after shooting off the ground (spin, divot, whatever), she can't avoid it, no obvious intent. Back foot still in the box.

But now, my call will be different.

You mean when the ball hits the BR before s/he has the chance to begin an advance toward 1B and neither foot has left the box? That is the situation that requires 7.4.J to be in the book.