Dead Ball or Out?

[tcannizzo]

Clarification(s) please.
7.4.J refers to a pitched ball only, no? Would have no bearing on a batted ball.

8.2.F.4 seems to make ANY contact with B-R in fair territory an Out (no reference to batter's box).

BATTER-RUNNER: A player who has completed a turn at bat but has not yet been put out or reached first base.

Now "completed a turn at bat" implies that the ball has been put in play.
So, how can a player remain B after completing a turn at bat? Wouldn't this immediately change the status to BR? Of course, this would result in ANY contact with a batted ball an out (8.2.F.4), meaning you could never (or damn near) have a foul ball, which of course makes no sense.

I can easily go along with an interpretation applying the logic behind RS 24 Hitting the ball a second time, it makes sense. But I would be much more comfortable with something specific in the book to cover this.

The way I am reading the book, there are too many contradictions.
Help get me untangled please.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

Clarificication(s) please.
7.4.J refers to a pitched ball only, no? Would have no bearing on a batted ball.

"ASA 2015, Page 86:

J. When any part of the batter's person or clothing is hit with a batted ball while the batter is in the batter's box and (FP) has few than two strikes."

Granted the FP notation is incorrect, but it refers to a batted ball.

8.2.F.4 seems to make ANY contact with B-R in fair territory an Out (no reference to batter's box).

BATTER-RUNNER: A player who has completed a turn at bat but has not yet been put out or reached first base.

Now "completed a turn at bat" implies that the ball has been put in play.
So, how can a player remain B after completing a turn at bat? Wouldn't this immediately change the status to BR? Of course, this would result in ANY contact with a batted ball an out (8.2.F.4), meaning you could never (or damn near) have a foul ball, which of course makes no sense.

Overthinking. Read 8.1.A

[EsqUmp]

Common Sense: B lays down a crappy bunt right in front of home plate in fair territory. She knows she dead so she kicks it up the line. She does this while her back foot is still in the box. Are you going to let that go? "I understand your concern coach, but her back foot was still technically in the box." Would you allow to to strike the ball a second time? "I understand why you are upset coach, but her foot was in the box so she can attempt to hit the ball a second time."

[jmkupka]

granted Esq, and in that case I'd even go so far as to cite intent, and not try to rationalize it by using this (I now know nonexistent) rule.

However, many times the bunted ball does contact the BR instantaneously after shooting off the ground (spin, divot, whatever), she can't avoid it, no obvious intent. Back foot still in the box.

But now, my call will be different.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

granted Esq, and in that case I'd even go so far as to cite intent, and not try to rationalize it by using this (I now know nonexistent) rule.

However, many times the bunted ball does contact the BR instantaneously after shooting off the ground (spin, divot, whatever), she can't avoid it, no obvious intent. Back foot still in the box.

But now, my call will be different.

You mean when the ball hits the BR before s/he has the chance to begin an advance toward 1B and neither foot has left the box? That is the situation that requires 7.4.J to be in the book.

[jmkupka]

No, I mean when ball is hit, then one foot steps out and contacts (or is contacted by) the batted ball, and back foot is still in BB.

However (please correct me if I'm wrong) if both feet are still in the box, the "foul" call is made only to give the BR the benefit of the doubt (since it is still possible to contact a fair batted ball while completely in the box, which would require an "out" call).

[Tru_in_Blu]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

No, I mean when ball is hit, then one foot steps out and contacts (or is contacted by) the batted ball, and back foot is still in BB.

However (please correct me if I'm wrong) if both feet are still in the box, the "foul" call is made only to give the BR the benefit of the doubt (since it is still possible to contact a fair batted ball while completely in the box, which would require an "out" call).

I think the proper call would still be "Dead ball". Then you have a second or two more to process what you've just seen. Follow that by either a foul ball call or the batter is out call.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

No, I mean when ball is hit, then one foot steps out and contacts (or is contacted by) the batted ball, and back foot is still in BB.

However (please correct me if I'm wrong) if both feet are still in the box, the "foul" call is made only to give the BR the benefit of the doubt (since it is still possible to contact a fair batted ball while completely in the box, which would require an "out" call).

Let me try to make this as clear as possible (I know I'm the one that muddied the water for many with set-in-stone thoughts).

This isn't dissimilar to dropping the bat, and the bat-hits-ball or ball-hits bat, when you get down to it. That's what I was inferring earlier.

If the batter is still stationary, and the ball hits the batter, it is a foul ball (still a batter, not a batter-runner). Rule 1, Foul Ball (F)

If the batter-runner is out of the batter's box and makes contact with a fair ball, or the fair ball contacts the BR, dead ball out. 8.2-F(4)

If the batter-runner is still in the batter's box (has not yet had a foot touch down completely outside the batter's box), the decision between dead-ball-foul-ball and dead-ball-out rests on which object initiated contact; if BR contacts the ball, dead ball out is the rule. But if ball bounds or spins back and hits moving BR, dead ball foul ball is defensible under strict reading of 8.2-F(4). If not definitive which happened, yes, give the BR the benefit of the doubt.

As to mechanics, I find it preferable (and preached by NCAA) to call dead ball first; it does serve to give you a moment to replay in your head before you come up with the definitive "Out!" or "Foul Ball", and stops those around you from helping you call the game by indicating you are on top of this call. The first instance above (batter still stationary) is the one version where "Foul Ball" alone might be an acceptable alternative, as this foul ball is really no different than one batted off the screen; never fair, never really batted live to be declared dead. That said, I would simplify the mechanic to always calling dead ball first, personally.

And yes, I said it earlier; it is the same rule in baseball. The difference is that the positioning of batters in the box (softball in the front, and generally already in fair territory, versus baseball in the back, and generally starting in foul territory) makes the results somewhat different. So that adds another layer of "benefit of the doubt" in baseball that you cannot usually apply in softball; if the batted ball was over fair ground?