Dead Ball or Out?

[Get-it-Correct]

Batter bunts ball. Ball lands, in fair territory, 12 inches in front of batters box. With the batter's first step out of the box, her foot lands directly on top of the fair ball (her other foot is still inside the batter's box. The rule states one foot must come in contact with the ground completely outside the box for the batter to be considered "out of the box". Since the top of a fair ball is not the ground, what's the correct call? Is it a dead-ball (just as if she came in contact with a batted ball while still in the box) or do you have an "out" for contacting a live ball, in fair territory, while not in the box?

[BretMan]

I think that the rule you quoted about "one foot on the ground completely out of the box" is the wrong rule. That's the rule about where the batter's feet can be at the moment the ball is batted (ie: when the bat contacts the ball).

That ship's already sailed. When this batter hit the ball she was (I assume) in a legal batting position, with no foot on the ground completely outside the box.

Now we have a batted ball over fair ground. When the batter stepped on it she contacted a fair batted ball outside of the batter's box. Dead ball, out.

[AtlUmpSteve]

I believe we have all come to terms with the difference between a discarded bat hitting the ball in fair territory (dead ball, out), and the ball hitting a discarded bat in fair territory (play on, ball live, bat is now part of the field).

So why don't we get the (similar) difference between a batted ball hitting a batter that is still in the batter's box (dead ball, foul ball), and a batter-runner that makes contact with a fair batted ball (dead ball, out), whether in the box, partially in the box or (obviously) out of the box?

It seems so simple, why is it an issue? Same in every rule set, and actually the same as baseball.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I believe we have all come to terms with the difference between a discarded bat hitting the ball in fair territory (dead ball, out), and the ball hitting a discarded bat in fair territory (play on, ball live, bat is now part of the field).

So why don't we get the (similar) difference between a batted ball hitting a batter that is still in the batter's box (dead ball, foul ball), and a batter-runner that makes contact with a fair batted ball (dead ball, out), whether in the box, partially in the box or (obviously) out of the box?

It seems so simple, why is it an issue? Same in every rule set, and actually the same as baseball.

What are you trying to say?

[Gulf Coast Blue]

He means to not overthink it like baseball people do.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I believe we have all come to terms with the difference between a discarded bat hitting the ball in fair territory (dead ball, out), and the ball hitting a discarded bat in fair territory (play on, ball live, bat is now part of the field).

So why don't we get the (similar) difference between a batted ball hitting a batter that is still in the batter's box (dead ball, foul ball), and a batter-runner that makes contact with a fair batted ball (dead ball, out), whether in the box, partially in the box or (obviously) out of the box?

It seems so simple, why is it an issue? Same in every rule set, and actually the same as baseball.

If a BR still in the box contacts a fair batted ball, I don't think the BR is out (see bold). Else, someone pour me more coffee.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

If a BR still in the box contacts a fair batted ball, I don't think the BR is out (see bold). Else, someone pour me more coffee.

That's close. If the BALL is in the box when it hits the batter (or the batter hits it), it's a foul ball... Doesn't matter where the rest of the batter is.

The OP is an out.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

If a BR still in the box contacts a fair batted ball, I don't think the BR is out (see bold). Else, someone pour me more coffee.

Cite the rule that supports your statement, please. I will cite 8.2-F(4) in ASA as calling the BR out (by making contact with a fair batted ball before reaching first base", and further state that the definition of Foul Ball (F) only covers a batted ball that touches the batter, NOT a batted ball that the BR contacts. Further 8.1-A makes that person a BR, no longer a batter, "as soon as the batter legally hits a fair ball"; fair without regard to being in or out of the batter's box.

So which rule can you cite that supports the BR initiating contact with a fair batted ball while still in the box creating a foul ball?

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

That's close. If the BALL is in the box when it hits the batter (or the batter hits it), it's a foul ball... Doesn't matter where the rest of the batter is.

The OP is an out.

Same question as to CecilOne. What rule can you cite that supports the ball being in the batter's box (in fair territory) which the BR contacts being a foul ball?

No rule that I see supports that. The intent is that the batter may hit a ball into the batter's own body BEFORE the batter starts to run; that is a foul ball, irrespective of the batter's position in front or back of the batter's box, thus possibly in fair territory.

No rule supports the batter beginning to run (becoming a batter-runner) and the player initiating contact with the batted ball (that hasn't touched the player prior to starting to run), in fair territory (WHETHER IN OR OUT OF THE BATTER'S BOX) being anything but OUT!

Don't want to make that call? Admit no balls, not rule support. Or cite me a rule with that support.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by BretMan

I think that the rule you quoted about "one foot on the ground completely out of the box" is the wrong rule. That's the rule about where the batter's feet can be at the moment the ball is batted (ie: when the bat contacts the ball).

That ship's already sailed. When this batter hit the ball she was (I assume) in a legal batting position, with no foot on the ground completely outside the box.

Now we have a batted ball over fair ground. When the batter stepped on it she contacted a fair batted ball outside of the batter's box. Dead ball, out.

You were good until the first four words in the last seven. She contacted a fair batted ball; the batter's box has no standing in this ruling.

Until/unless someone that I have challenged, or anyone, can find a rule to support that position.

[BretMan]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

You were good until the first four words in the last seven. She contacted a fair batted ball; the batter's box has no standing in this ruling.

Until/unless someone that I have challenged, or anyone, can find a rule to support that position.

I get where you're going with this. But in the OP the batter did actually contact the ball outside of the batter's box, so not only is that a statement of fact, it is the correct ruling!

[jmkupka]

I guess I'll cite 7.4.I...

This is really the first time I've ever seen the distinction made between batter (or BR) contacting the ball, versus ball contacting the batter, while at least one foot is still in the box.

The area in and around the BB in yesterday's games was like a sandy beach, and more than one bunted ball died directly where it hit the ground. And more than one batter contacted that fair batted ball on their first step, with their back foot still in the BB.

So my calls of "foul ball, foot still in the box" were incorrect in these cases?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by jmkupka

I guess I'll cite 7.4.I...

This is really the first time I've ever seen the distinction made between batter (or BR) contacting the ball, versus ball contacting the batter, while at least one foot is still in the box.

The area in and around the BB in yesterday's games was like a sandy beach, and more than one bunted ball died directly where it hit the ground. And more than one batter contacted that fair batted ball on their first step, with their back foot still in the BB.

So my calls of "foul ball, foot still in the box" were incorrect in these cases?

That would be 7.4.J and refers to the batter, not a batter runner. It also clearly states (as Steve implied) that the ball hits the batter or any part of the batter's person or clothing. This rule is necessary to protect the batter being hit with a batted ball in the portion of the BB that is in fair territory.

Now go to 8.2.F.4. Did the BR make contact with a fair batted ball? According to the OP, that is what happened.

[jmkupka]

Wow... cannot believe I was falling for a "myth" all this time...

A current thread "Batted ball hits runner....or maybe not!" has a related thread down at the bottom, that deals with this exact play.

From 2003.

Not that that's relevant, but it's how long I've been misapplying this rule. I owe a lot of defenses a lot of outs.

BTW, I have a lot of umpires in my assoc. to educate as well...

[tcannizzo]

I am also in the camp of the "newly enlightened".

Not that my memory is that great, but I don't recall ever seeing an umpire call a batter-runner out for contacting a ball while in the batter's box in fair territory; because sure as hell, there would be a coach wanting the explanation. Similarly, I don't ever recall a conversation about this topic with other umpires until seeing it here now (something that I would remember and have learned from).

It dawns on me how many other umpires are potentially misapplying this rule when they say something like "...int the box" (a phrase that I stopped using some time ago. But if one were to use a phrase, it would be better if it was something like "FOUL!, the ball hit the batter".