NFHS Scrimmage-kick rule discussion

ramaris · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 02, 2003, 04:49pm

An interesting thing happened in my Friday H.S. Varstiy game. During a try, the K team placed the kicking tee on the 8 yard line instead of the 10. It made for some interseting discussion. Is Roughing the snapper off? Can they score the 1 point try from the tee?
Here are some of the rules references.

2003 NFHS Rule 9-4-5 page 57
"Roughing the snapper. A defensive player shall not charge directly into the snapper when the offensive team is in a scrimmage-kick formation."

hmmm.. what is the defination of a scrimmage-kick formation??

2003 NFHS Rule 2-14-2 page 21
"A scrimmage-kick formation is a formation with at least one player 7 yards or more behind the netural zone and in posistion to receive the long snap. No player may be in posistion to receive a hand-to-hand snap from between the snapper's legs."

I beleive that the "snapper protection" would therefore be off. How about the score? I can't find anything to say that a field-goal/try must be from a scrimmage-kick formation.

Also, how would you call this? Safety would say call the roughing anyway, but the rules wouldn't support it.

Any thoughts??

BktBallRef · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 02, 2003, 05:06pm

You've answered your own question. It's not roughing.

Also, there is no restriction with regards to using the kickoff type tee. Most teams don't because the ball can't be teed as quickly.

Warrenkicker · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 02, 2003, 05:50pm

Any kick made from in or behind the NZ and made from a controlled hold can score 1 point during a try. As long as it is the first kick and the ball wasn't downed by the holder if he placed his knee on the ground in a way that isn't allowed for a scrimmage kick.

As for roughing the snapper, that requires 7 yards and proper positioning of players to allow that protection.

Ed Hickland · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 02, 2003, 09:38pm

I have always wondered why 7 yards was chosen. Could it have been because most snaps for field goals and extra point trys were already 7 yards?

Quote:

As for roughing the snapper, that requires 7 yards and proper positioning of players to allow that protection.

Does that mean if the kicker is 6 yards and 2 feet the snapper is "free meat?"

I would err on the side of safety and say close enough because the intent of the rule is to protect the long snapper who is in a terribly bad position after he snaps the ball. Long snapping is a highly skilled position not for those who cannot stand punishment. As Coach Madden says, if you can long snap it, you got a job.

But 5 yards as in this example is stretching the point.

What was the consensus of the meeting? Roughing or not?

davidfv1 · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 03, 2003, 12:44am

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed Hickland
I have always wondered why 7 yards was chosen. Could it have been because most snaps for field goals and extra point trys were already 7 yards?

Quote:

As for roughing the snapper, that requires 7 yards and proper positioning of players to allow that protection.

But 5 yards as in this example is stretching the point.

What was the consensus of the meeting? Roughing or not?

It is roughing... it is an obvious scrimmage kick formation and I do not know how many officials really measure or look to see if they are 6, 7 or 8 yards behind the snapper. So the spirt of the rules is to protect a snapper, holder, and kicker who are not in a position to protect themselves..

My call is roughing every time! [anyway, no coach is going to know the rule about 7 yards anyway...hehehe]

cowbyfan1 · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 03, 2003, 02:22am

I have to agree with both sides which makes it tough. They should be protected even though the rule says no as safety would (should) prevail. But if we bend this rule then we open ourselves up for a coach to expect us to bend another, and then another, etc...

Warrenkicker · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 03, 2003, 09:37am

Bending is precisly what the coaches work to do. The original rule stated that if you had a player 7 or more yards off of the LOS that was a scrimmage kick formation and thus the snapper could not be contacted directly. Some coach read that and put a flanker off of the line by 7 yards with the quarterback under center. This formation met the definition of a scrimmage kick formation. This was obviously not the intent of the new rule but was a result of how it was written. Since then we have more requirements like no one in position to take a direct snap and the player 7 yards off to be in a position to take it.

So the intent of the rule for roughing the snapper is to protect the snapper while in a vulnerable position. If they are lining up in a field goal formation but aren't quite as deep as is required by rule we can still tell the defense to stay off of the snapper just like we normally do on any normal punt, try, or field goal. The coaches may know that the protection requires 7 yards but the players probably don't. All they know is that you told them to stay off of the snapper.

cmathews · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 03, 2003, 10:41am

guys if we go with the thought that he gets protection, then what is to say he shouldn't be protected in the shotgun formation.....ie we should go with what is written, he must be 7 yards to be afforded the protection. If we do otherwise a coach is going to want the protection for the shotgun....I know safety is a concern but really has there been a lot of seriously injured centers from being hit after a long snap??? BTW ramaris, where in wyoming are you...you are the only wyomingite I have seen in here...glad to not be alone anymore LOL

Warrenkicker · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 03, 2003, 12:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by cmathews
guys if we go with the thought that he gets protection, then what is to say he shouldn't be protected in the shotgun formation.....ie we should go with what is written, he must be 7 yards to be afforded the protection. If we do otherwise a coach is going to want the protection for the shotgun....I know safety is a concern but really has there been a lot of seriously injured centers from being hit after a long snap???

Apparently or we wouldn't have this rule.

The safety concern is that the snapper has his head between his knees on a long snap because he would normally use both hands for a long snap and is looking back to see where to snap it to. In a shotgun formation the center will normally snap the ball with one hand and is looking forward to see the defender who he is going to block. Driving a guy's chin into his chest and rolling him up into a ball is very dangerous. It is much easier to break your neck if you bend your head forward than if you bend it back.

RedCashions · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 03, 2003, 12:41pm

Quote:

Originally posted by cmathews
guys if we go with the thought that he gets protection, then what is to say he shouldn't be protected in the shotgun formation.....ie we should go with what is written, he must be 7 yards to be afforded the protection. If we do otherwise a coach is going to want the protection for the shotgun....I know safety is a concern but really has there been a lot of seriously injured centers from being hit after a long snap??? BTW ramaris, where in wyoming are you...you are the only wyomingite I have seen in here...glad to not be alone anymore LOL

Why would it not be enforced for a "shotgun" formation? What is the difference between "shotgun" and "scrimmage-kick" formation? As long as there is one player 7+yds behind the neutral zone and in position to receive the long snap. Being in "scrimmage-kick" formation does not assure that A will kick.

Theisey · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 03, 2003, 01:17pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedCashions

Quote:

Originally posted by cmathews
...
Why would it not be enforced for a "shotgun" formation? What is the difference between "shotgun" and "scrimmage-kick" formation? As long as there is one player 7+yds behind the neutral zone and in position to receive the long snap. Being in "scrimmage-kick" formation does not assure that A will kick.

Under NF rules, there is no difference, the snapper is supposed to be protected.

Not so under NCAA, but lets stay with NF as that's where there seems to be some disagreement. This is not new stuff, it's been around for at least 3 maybe 4 years.

Scrimmage kick formation is equal to shotdun formation if the yardage part is meet. Blame this on the NF, they can fix this with an editiorial change to that definition.

RedCashions · #12 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 03, 2003, 01:20pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Theisey

Under NF rules, there is no difference, the snapper is supposed to be protected.

]

Yes I was referring NF as those are the rules I operate by every Friday night.

BktBallRef · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 03, 2003, 01:48pm

Quote:

Originally posted by davidfv1
My call is roughing every time! [anyway, no coach is going to know the rule about 7 yards anyway...hehehe]

What other rules do yoiu not enforce or make up because the coach doesn't know the rule? I'm not trying to be facetious but that's exactly what you're saying.

If the rule says 7 yards and the holder is only 5 yards away, what right do we have to change the rule?

Warrenkicker · #14 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 03, 2003, 02:10pm

I agree that we can't change the rule but we can do a little preventative officiating and when the snapper puts both hands on the ball then U can remind defensive line to not hit him with his head down. Safety first.

cmathews · #15 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 03, 2003, 02:16pm

Warrenkicker, if A is not in a scrimmage kick formation, you can't very well do that. I had a coach talk to me this weekend, he thought that crack back blocks, even legal ones should not be allowed. His reasoning was that they got a couple players hurt last year on legal crack backs, so thus a safety concern. You can't very well tell the wide out not to crack back on the defense, because it is legal, just as it is legal to hit the center if A is not in a scrimmage kick formation.